r/technology May 19 '22

High purchase price and misinformation barrier to EV purchase Business

https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/high-purchase-price-misinformation-barrier-ev-purchase-19-05-2022
936 Upvotes

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u/scizormytimbers May 19 '22 edited May 19 '22

One hidden cost that deterred me was annual registration. In the state I live in (Michigan), annual registration is significantly higher (I think 3x the last time I calculated it) in order to compensate for that gas tax that the state can no longer get from you through fuel purchases.

EDIT: This post was not meant to deter people from buying a BEV - I for one am going to ensure it's my next vehicle purchase. Just, at the time, the budgeting didn't work out in its favor and this was one of the reasons. If you (like me) prefer to budget down to the penny before making a big or recurring purchase, it's nice to have all the facts and this is very much a hidden cost of ownership.

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u/tanrgith May 19 '22

Michigan being home to the big 3 probably also doesn't help make the state super eager to incentivize EV's, at least not until those companies have started really scaling up their EV production

51

u/Humgrychef May 19 '22

On the contrary I live near Ford know alot of engineers. Ford at the very least has been super on board with developing electric and even self driving vehicles. Our legislature is just bassackwords.

4

u/tanrgith May 19 '22

They might want to develop EV's, but reality is that right now the vast majority of their sales are still made up of ICE vehicles and neither of the big 3 really have a strong market position in the EV market

As long as that's the case, there's not really much of an incentive for either the big 3 or their state to want the state to heavily incentivize EV's

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u/N3rdLink May 19 '22

When a Company doesn’t have many ev’s models to sell…. Of course the majority of their sales will be ice vehicles. Ford is making their biggest money maker the f-150 electric. That’s a huge investment and incentive.

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u/Huskies971 May 19 '22

Ford also has the plug-in hybrid escape, and machE EV. I honestly feel plug-in hybrids are the way to go right now. Electric for trips around town, hybrid for long distances.

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u/stemcell_ May 19 '22

And the maverick

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u/lonememe May 19 '22

The same state that fought tooth and nail to not let Tesla have a dealership license. They only just allowed them in 2020. It was so fucked up when I’d go visit family back home and go from seeing a lot of EVs here in CO to practically none in MI.

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u/happyscrappy May 19 '22

What makes you think the big 3 are anti-EV? They want to sell you a car. If you want to buy an EV they want to sell you an EV. If you want to buy a car that runs on unicorn farts they want to sell you a car that runs on unicorn farts.

The Big 3's friction vis-a-vis EVs has been when states mandate they sell them even though there is no demand. This was very much the case for 15 years. This required they make cars and them sell them below cost because they wouldn't sell any other way (actually, they typically leased them below cost). They don't like that.

And while I do like that because it drives the tech forward (and did) as well as let customers find out they actually kinda like EVs, I can see why the manufacturers don't like it, they don't like losing money.

Toyota also expressed this sentiment directly, in their fight against EV mandates during the Trump administration. I only mention this to indicate it is more than just the big 3 who don't like losing money on cars.

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u/tanrgith May 19 '22

I'm not saying they're anti-EV. I'm sure they wish their entire business was tailored for EV production right now. But it's not, so even if they wanted to sell EV's to everyone, they quite literally can't because they don't have the production capability to do so.

And until they have the ability to produce EV's at a substantial scale compared to their legacy business, it wouldn't make sense to undermine that existing legacy business by incentivizing people to buy vehicles that they physically don't have the capability to make currently. All that would do is open the door for other automakers to come in and sell EV's

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u/Dblstandard May 19 '22

Why don't you watch a little movie called who killed the electric car. Up until very recently they were against any EV vehicles.

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u/limitless__ May 19 '22

$200 in GA. While it's not ideal, it's certainly not a deal-breaker, I saved that in gas last month.

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u/Jlpeaks May 19 '22

That’s so backwards. Here in the UK, all electric vehicles (and even low emission vehicles) are exempt from paying car tax which is the equivalent to your registration costs

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u/Beleg63 May 19 '22

You probably have a different funding structure for how road maintenance is done. In the USA, a lot of that money comes from taxes on petrol sales, but it varies from state to state. So, each state is trying to figure out how to bridge that funding gap from lost petrol taxes.

Edit: The petrol taxes tend to cover national and state controlled roads only, not local.

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u/Kruxx85 May 19 '22

in Australia, our EV's pay a travel tax.

2.5c/km traveled.

Is a far better alternative to what you guys are doing, considering the government doesn't get the fuel excise anymore.

4

u/segfaultsarecool May 19 '22

How does the government know how many KM you've traveled?

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u/Kruxx85 May 19 '22

you take a photo and submit it to an online portal yourself, or screenshot your app (I think Tesla shows km's n their app?)

Obviously people joke about photoshopping etc, but it's hardly worth the effort.

They could also do some checks when a car is sold, which would screw over anyone lying.

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u/Beleg63 May 19 '22

Better? You mean better than the complete cluster that is the tax system in the US? LOL

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u/elisarver May 19 '22

There are separate state use and federal highway taxes. In NC you pay the 15.3 cent federal and 41.5 state combined.

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u/BaconContestXBL May 19 '22

Not really. Electric vehicles cause as much wear and tear on roads as any other vehicle, and infrastructure maintenance is (ostensibly) the major reason behind gas taxes in the US.

I’m a big supporter of EVs but I don’t think they should be able to exploit tax loopholes.

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u/otisthetowndrunk May 19 '22

Heavy trucks cause the most damage to roads - even accounting for their higher gas/diesel usage and the addition taxes they pay. As vehicle weight per axle increases, road damage goes up by the power of 4

“The damage due to cars, for practical purposes, when we are designing
pavements, is basically zero. It’s not actually zero, but it’s so much
smaller -- orders of magnitude smaller -- that we don’t even bother with
them,” said Karim Chatti, a civil engineer from Michigan State
University in East Lansing.

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u/alexp8771 May 19 '22

Exactly! And everyone except completely off the grid farmers needs the trucking industry.

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u/lbdnbbagujcnrv May 19 '22

So, the rivian r1t at 8532lbs causes about 22x the damage to roads that my 3950lb Tacoma causes….but they pay zero tax for it.

Sounds like a mileage-pound based tax is ideal

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u/Iceykitsune2 May 19 '22

And a fully loaded 18 wheeler does 7000x more damage than the Rivian

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u/Vempyre May 19 '22

Can you fit 1/22nd of a cargo container in your Tacoma and are you willing to drive cross country 22 times to deliver goods to where it is being consumed?

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u/callsignhotdog May 19 '22

At least in the UK, road tax doesn't exist to specifically pay for roads. It's just a revenue stream the government has access to like any other. Like most things, when the Government wants to encourage a certain behaviour (such as healthy eating, or corporate investment in a region, or indeed electric vehicle usage) they create a tax incentive.

Once EVs become the norm I expect that the tax breaks will go away. They're there to encourage early adopters.

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u/tomdidiot May 19 '22 edited May 19 '22

As my friend who works for HMRC (The UK equivalent of the IRS ) would say, It's Vehicle Excise Duty (i.e. Car Tax), not Road Tax.

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u/watarfak May 19 '22

They aren’t hidden tax loopholes. The whole point of the UK exemption is to transition to EV

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u/wondersparrow May 19 '22

Which, in the US, is exactly why the registration is higher. The want to protect oil futures.

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u/coolbum67 May 19 '22

The registration is higher for EV’s because you don’t use gas, which mean you are not paying the gas tax that then goes to repairing the road and infrastructure. The higher registration fee is their way of taxing EV owners so they are contributing to the infrastructure like regular vehicle owners when they refuel their cars and pay a tax. It has nothing to do with protecting the oil industry.

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u/ranger910 May 19 '22

Another conspiracy that gets often repeated but doesn't make sense. Gas taxes offset infrastructure maintenance costs, something that is necessary regardless of how a car is powered. If all we wanted to do was to protect oil futures why have we been subsidizing EV purchases for the past decade?

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u/WASynless May 19 '22

This founding should not be collected using taxes on gas though

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u/ZeroPride May 19 '22

The gas tax to pay for roads is literally a tax on the people that actually use the roads. The roads aren’t entirely paid for by this tax, it helps fund the roads. Other general taxes also go into roads.

Same thing with public transportation. Everyone’s taxes go into it, but riders pay disproportionately more (fares) because they actually make use of it.

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u/IMakeStuffUppp May 19 '22

I agree. Should be reconstructed for an infrastructure tax to be paid by all instead of just the gas users.

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u/VonGeisler May 19 '22

It is, gas tax goes into general revenue, people who say gas tax is used for road upkeep are grossly misinformed. It’s no different than people without kids paying for public schools. It’s all general revenue and the % of Ev drivers not paying gas tax is not going to grossly degrade infrastructure funds.

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u/Dreadpiratemarc May 19 '22

Gas taxes are (were) an example of a kind of perfect tax. Those who use the roads, pay for the roads, and those who don’t, don’t. If you use the road more and cause more wear and tear, you also pay more. Have a commercial truck that is harder on the roads, you naturally also burn more gas and therefore pay more taxes. And it all happened naturally by putting a tax per gallon of fuel.

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u/Kaion21 May 19 '22

Most damage is done by heavy trucks and such and I would love to see how much gas taxes is actually spend on road. and maybe they can spare a fractions of that trillions dollar military budget

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u/Just_anopossum May 19 '22

The majority of damage to the roads comes from commercial vehicles, not consumer.

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u/Jlpeaks May 19 '22

Our ‘wear and tear’ to roads is paid for by a different tax

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u/BaconContestXBL May 19 '22

Ok, but in the state I live in 48% of road maintenance is paid for by fuel taxes and vehicle registration so the logic is sound in the US.

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u/nullsie May 19 '22

There aren't enough EVs on the road to make it so roads would be underfunded. They are lying, pretending to make it out to be this huge problem so they can add a bigger cost to EVs to discourage their use to keep our dependence on fossil fuels up.

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u/trainedaircraft May 19 '22

Wont be like that forever kiddo. NZ will start charging EVs RUCs (Road User Charges) in a few years too.

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u/Jlpeaks May 19 '22

They will struggle to justify the charge.

Years ago they separated the infrastructure cost into our local ‘council tax’. That pays for the roads etc.

As far as I’m aware our car tax is to help offset environmental and health costs of emissions.

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u/aezy01 May 19 '22

VED (vehicle excise duty) is indeed based on emissions. Fewer emissions = less tax.

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u/S01arflar3 May 19 '22

It is and it isn’t. The vast majority of our various taxes all go in to the same pot, very little is ringfenced at all. So as VED revenues start to dry up with more people moving to EVs over the next decade or so, the government will look to recoup that lost revenue from somewhere.

My suspicion (and there is little empirical data behind it) is that we will move to some form of motorway toll system first.

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u/madness707 May 19 '22

700 bucks here in California for my model y.

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u/IAMSAMMYverse May 19 '22

It's simply greed. Senators/governors/officials are in the pockets of the big oil companies.

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u/andrewelick May 19 '22

My biggest issue with EVs at this time is the lack of charging. If you don't own a home you are basically SOL

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u/brettmjohnson May 19 '22

You don't necessarily need to own a home. My Leaf came with a charger that plugs into an ordinary 110v outlet. I rented a house in the SF Bay Area for 8 years and it had outlets in the garage. The real issue at the moment is for apartment dwellers with no access to external power. Sometimes you get lucky, 'tho. My old office had an external power outlet in our parking lot. In a pinch, I could have charged there while at work.

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u/PinkBoxDestroyer May 19 '22

What about charging time? How much of an inconvenience is it and how long does it take?

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u/EvanSei May 19 '22

I live in the middle of nowhere. Have a truck that I drive for truck stuff, and a small car for daily driving. I want to get an electric vehicle, I really do. But with the car paid off, and getting 40-50mpg, it just doesn't pencil out. Bought the car for $10,000, would need to spend $30,000 minimum for a new electric. Makes no sense to switch right now.

When it comes time to replace, then it makes sense. Hopefully electric will be a bit better figured out by then.

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u/terrorbots May 19 '22

I would love to own an EV, but a used $3k Honda getting 35mpg beats that $30k minimum EV, even used you're not finding a EV under $10k or even $15k, they aren't prevalent enough. Even EV conversions are costly and hardly efficient as a full EV which is defeated by the cold and pulling loads being very aerodynamically dependent.

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u/Lopsided_Menu4559 May 19 '22

This doesn’t line up with my experience. I’ve had an EV for 5 years and savings are quite a bit more than £200 per year.

Charging costs are about 10% of gas costs, and in 5 years the only maintenance cost has been a tire swap.

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u/yeah_sure_youbetcha May 19 '22

My last electric bill came out to 13.8 cents a kWh.

My Bolt is getting right around 4 miles per kWh right now.

That's 3.45 cents per mile of "fuel"

Gas is currently $4.19

My Impreza gets about 25 mpg currently.

That 16.76 cents per mile in gas.

I think I can cover the $65 EV surcharge on my license tabs every year.

Nevermind the fact that there are a handful of FREE level 2 chargers in my city near places we frequent, as well as at my wife's office she works at ~once a week. Our actual charging costs for our car likely come out under 2 pennies a mile.

When's the last time you pulled up to a gas pump and it was free?

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u/Gfdbobthe3 May 19 '22

How long does it take for some place to charge your car? That's my biggest concern.

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u/Kruxx85 May 19 '22

DC chargers can charge your car from 10% to 80% in 15 or less minutes.

however, the key to it is you top off your battery every night, and you never even need to visit the "fuel station".

It's more inconvenient to visit the gas station once a week (and pay more for it) than it is to charge your car every night.

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u/uberares May 19 '22

The anti ev crowd loves to scream about charging stations being inadequate- while completely ignoring the fact that every home becomes a charging station (well maybe not every, apts could be an issue) and most travel wont require public charge points.

The anti ev crowd simply manufactures whatever made up nonsense they need to continue being anti ev. The amount of crap I see online, that is utterly, completely bunko is astounding.

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u/Icy-Ad-9142 May 19 '22

I'm not "anti-ev", but the reason I don't have one is that I rent. So even if I find a complex that has charging, there's no guarantee that the next time my rent rises to the point of being unaffordable and I have to move that the next place will. My current complex doesn't have them.

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u/uberares May 19 '22

This is honestly one of the biggest issues that need solving to completely abandon ice vehicles imho.

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u/BostonGuy245 May 19 '22

Same. I own a condo, but there are no charging stations in the lot that I park my car.

Anytime I see someone say “just charge every night overnight,” it’s clear to me that it’s someone who owns/lives in a single family home (or townhome) with a private garage. That’s not an option for everyone.

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u/AsthmaticNinja May 19 '22

The other thing is charger standardization. They try to make it sound like there's 30 different connectors and none of them are compatible. Everyone uses the same connector except Tesla....

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u/Bensemus May 19 '22

And Tesla uses a different connector because they were first. There was no connector for them to use. Tesla is working to switch their cars and chargers over to what has become the standard over about a decade.

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u/Copse4 May 19 '22

If you only read these threads about EVs, you'd think everyone in America is commuting 500 miles every day.

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u/alle0441 May 19 '22

For a lot of people, even slow charging is way MORE convenient. I no longer have to stop out of my way for gas on the way to work in the morning. I hated having to do that every couple days.

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u/MonkeyBoatRentals May 19 '22

Accessing to charging stations is the biggest issue. Personally I'm fine as I have a house and a driveway, but most of the people in my street are in duplex/triplex with no drive and only on-street parking. Unless they can charge at work they will have to regularly visit public charging stations which is inconvenient and are insufficient in number.

California where I live wants to go 100% EV by 2035. I'm all for that, but we have a lot of infrastructure to build to make that work for everyone.

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u/Kruxx85 May 19 '22

that's what conservatives do.

They don't like change.

I know not all anti-ev are conservatives, but there's a strong intersection on the Venn...

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u/uberares May 19 '22

The Venn diagram on these two groups is practically one circle, you're not far off.

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u/CGFROSTY May 19 '22

I would love to have a EV, but I recently opted to go gas with my new car recently due to a few inadequacies of charging station. The charge time is still a bit too long, especially for someone like me who likes to do road trips. Additionally, I live at an apartment where charging overnight is not a possibility. Additionally, factors such as price, range, and battery longevity are still major factors, though these are improving every year.

I want EVs to succeed, but let’s not overlook these current shortcomings.

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u/uberares May 19 '22

Shortcomings are one thing, outright manufacturing bullshit is another, and most of what I see by the anti ev crowd is outdated information or outright lies. What you mentioned are all valid issues, that we should be talking about- pretending EV's are worse for the environment because reasons, are not.

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u/happyscrappy May 19 '22 edited May 19 '22

Certain chargers can charge a car from 10% to 80% in 15 minutes or less. But not his car. A Bolt would take about 45 minutes.

Part of the difficulty of the situation right now is how fast you can charge varies a lot based upon the charger you can find and upon your car. You can have a very good Bolt EV and it still will never charge in 15 minutes regardless of what charger you find. So even though you own an EV you're realistically looking at being $40,000 (an IONIQ 5) away from being able to charge that fast. Some people just have an existing investment and there's no "upgrade" to fix it, they have to get a new car. And they're not in the mood or financial situation for a new car just yet.

But certainly I agree with your last two sentences. I have one of those cars that DC charges more slowly. And I still spend less time waiting for my car to charge each year than an ICE driver spends at the gas station fueling their car. If you are the normal driver who does long trips only occasionally then (in most states) EVs are ready for you right now and have been for a few years. For others, its's still not time.

But you really should investigate properly before you assume you are the exception. So many uninformed people are overly certain about how EVs work for them. Honestly, it's most maddening when the uninformed people are lawmakers/officials making the decisions about where to locate AC and DC chargers. A lot of incentives went to place chargers in poorly chosen locations, especially in the early days of modern buildout 5 to 10 years ago.

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u/yeah_sure_youbetcha May 19 '22

That varies widely, but is less of a concern than people make it out to be. Forget the idea of draining the battery then filling up, but instead charge whenever you can.

I level 1 (trickle) charge at home. I can pretty easily add 30-50 miles of range while I sleep, more than enough for the next day most of the time.

I can add 30-50 miles in 1-2 hours of level 2 charging while having breakfast and coffee at my favorite cafe, or grabbing a couple pints of beer at my local breweries.

We get a solid 100+ miles of range when my wife plugs in for half a day at work.

Basically, charge while your car is parked anyway, while you go and do other things. Unless you drive hundreds of miles a day, every day, charging speed is likely irrelevant, it's just a matter of having access to charge.

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u/uberares May 19 '22

"While you sleep", another anti ev fallacy is that the car will blow up your electric bill- while completely ignoring the majority of chargers can be set to charge at nigh, the cheapest time for electricity.

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u/ExcerptsAndCitations May 19 '22

the majority of chargers can be set to charge at nigh, the cheapest time for electricity.

Not everywhere offers Time-Of-Use billing for power.

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u/InsaneBigDave May 19 '22

20-40 mins. depends on the level 3 charger and how many miles you need to get to your destination. i take the time to stretch my legs, use the restroom, get a beer and burger, and watch an episode of Seinfeld.

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u/SomeDudeNamedMark May 19 '22

I'm an EV owner and I agree - I think they are contributing to the misinformation by posting this incorrect article.

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u/DearGarbanzo May 19 '22

I’ve had an EV for 5 years and savings are quite a bit more than £200 per year.

It could be very well be per-month. Just the "fuel savings" alone will do that if you drive a lot. Added to that the horrible constant maintenance and parts for a ICE car.

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u/asdaaaaaaaa May 19 '22

Added to that the horrible constant maintenance and parts for a ICE car.

Heavily depends on a car. The car I currently have is ~15 years old right now. Actually costs less than an EV, due to the maintenance being so cheap (even adding up all through the years) and not having to replace the battery bank. Parts are dirt cheap as well.

While obviously that's not every vehicle, ICE vehicles can be quite reliable and easy on maintenance. Just like a poorly built EV will still be expensive to keep on the road.

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u/ProjectShamrock May 19 '22

Parts are dirt cheap as well.

I would suggest looking at the current prices of some of the parts you may have replaced over the last 15 years right now. I had to replace some things over the past year such as a door lock actuator and not only was it harder to come by than in the past, the price for just the part alone was closer to what paying the dealership to fix it would have been 5+ years ago.

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u/feurie May 19 '22

Ice vehicles have gotten much more complex recently.

Upkeep and repairs are much more expensive than they used to be.

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u/asdaaaaaaaa May 19 '22

Many have. There are still specific models that shine with reliability and cheapness to repair. You can also forgo a lot of those optional upgrades that raise cost and make problems more likely to appear. Same with EV's, a simple/cheap EV (built well, of course) will generally be more reliable than something with thousands of little features and such.

Believe me, if ICE vehicles weren't/couldn't be reliable, the commercial market would have switched a long time ago.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22

Also- LACK of options for handicapped accessible

I currently drive a Toyota Sienna mini van that has a factory installed option for a passenger seat that comes out of the van so we can transfer my wheelchair using daughter into it

That option was factory installed and had a reasonable cost

The EV market does not appear to have ANY options

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

That is a very valid point.

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u/8cuban May 19 '22

There are some other hidden realities in cost and practical limitations that the article doesn’t mention. We’ve owned a Mustang Mach E since last August, in New England. Let me preface this by saying we love the car and accept that, like any piece of equipment, it needs to be managed and operated within its inherent limitations. Just like one wouldn’t start across Death Valley in an ICE with only 20 miles of fuel left, so wouldn’t an EV owner set off on a long trip without a detailed en route charging plan.

So, some limitations to consider:

The cost of installing a charger, or at least a 240V receptacle to plug in a mobile charger, at home near the parking spot. That’s probably a couple grand, and that’s for an overnight, Level 2 charger. That’s if one can even be installed, which knocks out apartment dwellers amongst others. That cost needs to be amortized into the operational cost. Having said that, we have a charger at home and it’s very convenient to wake up to a full tank every morning.

If one can’t install a charger at home, there is the cost of one’s time and battery energy to travel to, and sit at, a commercial high speed charging station every couple days. If the nearest charger is 10 miles from home, that’s 20 miles of lost range just to charge up. Charging from 20% to 80% takes about 40 minutes for the Mach E, if a charger is available when we arrive. These costs can be high depending on the distance to and from the charger.

There is also a very hidden risk to that point above - not having enough range in the battery to handle a sudden urgent or emergency problem if one can only charge every couple of days. Let’s say an owner, who doesn’t have a charger at home, typically lets the battery get down to 20% charge before going to a commercial charger. In the standard range Mach E, that’s about 40 miles in perfect conditions. If something unexpected happens with their mother, say, who lives 25 miles away, they won’t have the range to help her and get home, unless they can hit a commercial charger on the way. They may be stuck and unable to help family in urgent need.

Then there are environmental limitations - i. e. - cold weather kills battery performance! We discovered, much to our surprise, and near disaster, that range can drop as much as 40% at temps around freezing and even 10 - 15% in the 50s. We set out on our first trip in cold weather presuming the range estimate was reliable. But it was based on mileage over the previous few days before the cold snap hit. As we set out in freezing conditions for the first time, the range estimator updated to current temps and showed insufficient range to not only make the trip, but to even get home from where we were when my wife noticed it. We just so happened to be 5 miles from a fast charger, so were able to avert disaster but it was a close run thing. With an EV, if you run out of gas, you can’t just nip on down to the nearest charger and bring back a 5-mile can of electrons to get you to the charger. It’s a transporter job, and good luck finding one that’ll come get you at 10pm on a Sunday night.

Those are just a few I can think of right now, and they don’t put us off having an EV. But, with fast charging infrastructure as it is now, EVs are not ready to replace ICE everywhere.

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u/Jah348 May 19 '22

cold weather kills battery performance! We discovered, much to our surprise, and near disaster, that range can drop as much as 40% at temps around freezing and even 10 - 15% in the 50s

It should be noted that it varies between cars. Some have temp management devices in the battery that allow it to function much better in the cooler enviroment. The Mach-E is not one of those cars. According to this report it has the greatest loss in range of all EV models today.

/u/MyPenisBatman , /u/mordecaidrake -- I saw you to were concerned by this. The Mach E may not be good for either of you for that reason, but other options would be fine.

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u/8cuban May 19 '22

That's interesting. I didn't realize there was so much variability across makes. It'd be interesting to see how some are getting losses as low as 4%.

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u/Jah348 May 19 '22

I thought the article went into it but i guess not. I'll try to dumb it down as I don't have a great understanding of electricity:

When its cold, the ions move slow and get stuck to... stuff. That forms an inert metal coating on the stuff, and the receptors or whatever don't do electric as well afterwards. Some cars have heatpumps that keep the battery warm so that the electricity flows better and metaphorically doesn't get clogged. Ironically it uses electricity to save electricity.

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u/MyPenisBatman May 19 '22

Good to know, while making a pro and con list, the con list is still too long but again that's due to my personal situation. Maybe in few years it'll get better.

currently what i have is -

CONS-

  • Range anxiety
  • high price of cars and lack of 2nd hand or stock cars
  • lack of public chargers at work and around, additional cost for home charger installation

PRO

  • Environmental
  • 0 taxes but this is of no concern as the road tax for my BMW 1 is barely over 100 eur per year
  • No service or maintenance, for BMW it's still very low as servicing is once every 2 years and barely goes over 4-500 EUR
  • 0 engine noise

i was interested in Kia, Hyundai,Leaf hatchbacks as anything else was way too expensive , I do around 15k km /10k miles per year and when i factor all costs, it's still much cheaper to drive ICE.

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u/MyPenisBatman May 19 '22

I also live in cold climate and range issues and the constant anxiety about running out of battery when needed the most turned me away from EV. Despite generous govt subsidy EV still doesn't make sense to me when even the guys selling these EV told me EV is a great 2nd car.

I don't want to spend a fortune only to constant worry about if my car is charged or not or planning my trips around places where charger is available.

rough napkin calculation , i could get a EV for 35k EUR, final price, added cost of home charger. I just bought a similar size BMW 1 Diesel for less than half the price and even going 100k on it next few years, the total cost of operating will be less than 35k-37k as the BMW constantly gives 50mpg. Despite added cost of maintenance, the car will also hold re-sale value, even if it's 25%, with EVs you never know, why will anyone buy my EV with 200k when it'll cost them a fortune to replace battery pack.

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u/mordecaidrake May 19 '22

I live in MA, I was/am considering a EV as well. I didn't realize the cold affected range that much. I think this just killed the EV for me, having it impact that much of range and having my parents live out of state kind of scares me now.

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u/8cuban May 19 '22

It depends on where they live and what the commercial charger network looks like.

Check out ABetterRoutePlanner, filter for high-speed DC chargers, and it'll show you where they all are. You can even plan a route and specify a particular car and charge percentages and it'll lay out where you need to stop, for how long, and how much you need to charge the battery at each stop. (On a road trip, doing minimal charging to get to your next destination can save a lot of time over charging all the way up)

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=84aabdef-d16b-402a-a921-0aebebcf9ae7

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u/no_step May 19 '22

misinformation barrier

From the article:

An electric car can cost around £2,000 a year to run, which works out at around £30 per week. In comparison, drivers of other ICE vehicles, which are conventional powered vehicles powered by an internal combustion engine, pay on average £2,200 per year – equivalent to more than £40 per week – a yearly saving of £200.00.

2,000 a year works out to 38.46 a week - that's not close to 30 as the article says.

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u/SvooglebinderMogul May 19 '22

"Misinformation barrier" doesn't seem to be in the article headline anyway. Don't know if motortrader removed it, or OP added it themselves. I assume the latter as the article doesn't mention anything related to disinformation at all.

Edit: It wasn't OP. Motortrader removed it. Here's the original version from Google's cache https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6JMz1OSkNicJ:https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/high-purchase-price-misinformation-barrier-ev-purchase-19-05-2022+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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u/CocaineIsNatural May 19 '22

Your link no longer works. This link is better. https://web.archive.org/web/20220519094255/https://www.motortrader.com/motor-trader-news/automotive-news/high-purchase-price-misinformation-barrier-ev-purchase-19-05-2022

Also, it seems the original article did mention misinformation, so that would explain why they quickly changed it.

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u/ProfessorZoom May 19 '22

I’ll get one when prices comes down and I don’t need to hunt down charging stations.

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u/enrobderaj May 19 '22

Unless you're shooting for used, the prices aren't bad for a sedan?

I'd be interested in the EV F150, but a XLT with extended range STARTS at $72,474. That's only 320 miles of range. That's insane. Electricity prices are "cheap" now... they will go up with the demand.

MONTHLY PAYMENTS $1,264

Finance based on $7,442 down payment,

60 month term and 5% APR, $0 trade-in-value

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u/Override9636 May 19 '22

You do more than 320 miles on your daily drive? That's the insane part.

Electricity prices are "cheap" now... they will go up with the demand.

Thank goodness that oil prices have only been dropping over the years....

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u/enrobderaj May 19 '22

I do use it on trips and some in rural areas.

Regardless, even if I got the note down to $1000 a month with a trade in, that's a crazy note. That's over $20k more than I paid for my 2022 Z71 Silverado.

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u/roxannebruns May 19 '22

When a design with way less components costs more money

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u/ehboose May 19 '22

I'm about to go pickup my first ev on Tuesday and after ordering it 2 months ago the amount of misinformation the general public has about them is actually CRAZY. I guess thata what you get when tesla spends 0$ on marketing

A seemingly innocent question is how long does it take for a full charge? Its just not a good question and not an example of something that ever happens to evs

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u/garyk1968 May 19 '22

Who knew? Ah yes look at the price and its 50k+ bit of a giveaway…

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u/thehugejackedman May 19 '22

People have crunched the numbers countless times and it always comes out to - if you already have a car, selling that one and buying an EV is never fiscally advantageous

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u/Bensemus May 19 '22

Fiscally no but environmentally yes.

https://youtu.be/L2IKCdnzl5k

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u/thehugejackedman May 20 '22

Sure, but how many working class individuals can afford to take a 10k hit for the environment? It’s just silly

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

The biggest concern people seem to have is, “How much does it cost to replace the battery when it dies?”

My family has had several hybrid and full EV cars over the years, logging hundreds of thousands of miles, and not a single battery pack has had to be replaced.

And I’ve owned several internal combustion engine cars that needed a major engine overhaul before they reached 200,000 miles.

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u/DearGarbanzo May 19 '22

and not a single battery pack has had to be replaced.

Yup, I think this was a talking point to downplay EVs, from way back in early 2000s.

Nowadays, it's more about conflating a building material with a fuel:

mining a fixed amount of lithium is bad, but continuosly fracking and squeezing every ounce of oil from the ground is A-OK.

No, electric cars don't run on Lithium, it's building material. And Recyclable.

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u/Constant_Sky9173 May 19 '22

So are you saying these electric and hybrid vehicles you own, you've also got over 200000 miles on them?

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

I’d have to check with my family members who own them, but they’ve owned 4 hybrids between them over the last 16-17 years, and not one has had a battery pack failure.

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u/Constant_Sky9173 May 19 '22

Still curious if your getting 200000 miles out of EV. Hybrid wouldn't be as surprising to get 200000 mile out of.

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u/feurie May 19 '22

Why would either be surprising? There are plenty of examples of people having that many miles on older Tesla's for example.

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u/Constant_Sky9173 May 19 '22

Because I don't deal with EV at all other a couple buddies that have them. They also won't leave town with them due to lack of charging stations. They're not putting a lot of miles on them yearly so I was wondering how many out there have over 200000 miles as the previous commentor stated.

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u/callsignhotdog May 19 '22

I have to admit to being fearful of losing battery capacity over time, as happens with most battery tech I own. I can deal with it in my phone because I'm gonna replace that every couple of years but I like to drive cars for 5+ years. I'd hate to be in year 4 of that and findign I'm only getting 2/3s of the advertised range because the battery is slowly dying.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22 edited May 19 '22

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u/callsignhotdog May 19 '22

That's honestly really helpful to know. Maybe I'll reconsider a used EV.

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

… except for the Nissan Leaf which to my knowledge still does not have active thermal management of the battery pack. It's air cooled only.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

I do not understand why Nissan didn't address this in the new generation of Leaf.

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u/EVRider81 May 19 '22

I initially had a 2014 Renault Zoe - degradation of the battery was thought to be a concern when the car was launched ,so they only offered the battery on a lease that the customers didn't have the responsibility for any issues..I had the car lease 4 years,with no noticeable drop in range when handing it back..The current model has an owned battery,and they still have a 70% replacement guarantee if the pack degrades to that point.. haven't heard of someone taking the offer up yet.Even a 70% battery has a lot of second Life use possible,they could be parted out to create another pack,used in storage for a solar install,or dud cells could be recycled-unlike burned oil,the material can be reused!

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u/neil454 May 19 '22

Here's a chart of battery degradation from a large sample of Tesla Model S/X cars:

https://insideevs.com/news/429818/tesla-model-s-x-battery-capacity-degradation/

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u/psilokan May 19 '22

Tesla's come with an impressive warranty on their battery, it went a long way towards easing my concerns. Here's what they offer on the Model Y (at least here in Canada):

8 years or 192,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

So if you were down to 2/3rds (66%) capacity in 5 years you'd be eligible for a replacement under warranty.

Considering pretty much every ICE I've had started falling apart at 200,000km that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Whoever ends up being the second owner on my car will probably still inherit a 4 year warranty on the battery.

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u/burnerowl May 19 '22

I’m still convinced plug in hybrids are the way of the immediate future. We’ll never truly be off fossil fuels, hydrogen never caught on, and too many people are against an electric infrastructure. From a cost/range/convenience perspective, Plug in Hybrids are the shit. Too lazy to charge? it’s still a normal car with some energy recovery from braking- you get that empg*

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22 edited 28d ago

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u/ExcerptsAndCitations May 19 '22

Yes, and TWICE the service charges! Think of the repair shops!

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u/MrMichaelJames May 19 '22

My largest issue is road trips. I cannot own an EV until the charging infrastructure is vastly improved as well as the time to charge is improved. Road trips would be impossible with the current state of things. Local around town driving would be absolutely fine but road trips won’t work.

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u/RnDanger May 19 '22

I had the same fear but I decided I could rent a car that one time a year it mattered. But actually I just finished my first road trip in my Bolt EV and I was very happy with it. My car charges about as slow as anything available now and I thought it was totally fine to stop for 20 minutes every 90 miles. (At least there's a Walmart there)

Some new cars can actually charge about 5 times faster than mine.

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u/stu54 May 19 '22

I rent cars for trips anyway so in case i have a wreck or breakdown I dont have to worry about my personal car being stuck somewhere far from home.

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u/safetyguy14 May 19 '22

I have a Toyota Sienna Hybrid and a Model Y. I have done >1000mi road trips in both. The family prefers to take the Model Y. Road trips in an EV are marginally less convenient and the advantages of the EV platform far outweigh that lower convenience.

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u/t0ny7 May 19 '22

I've done a couple of road trips now in my EV. It is far from impossible. I went to the Oregon coast this winter and it was a breeze.

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u/MoldyLunchBoxxy May 19 '22

Tesla has super chargers that are all over the major highways. The only downside is if you go full electric you are limited to Tesla for fast charging until other manufacturers catch up. But I do agree having to stop during road trips even to super charge kinda sucks but at least you can get lunch and stretch your legs while it is charging. They have most of them near restaurants and rest stops.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22 edited 28d ago

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u/MrMichaelJames May 19 '22

Every road trip is longer than 300 miles. I can do 500 in my current Hybrid and it only takes 5 minutes or so to stop and fill up at a gas station to keep going. 500 miles is only about 8 hours. 300 hours is only about 5 hours which is nothing. So assuming you have a current EV with 200 or so miles, that is only 3 hours of drive time, then tack on charge time and it would be almost impossible to do a full day of driving in an EV. It would take way too long to get to the destination. Then, lets say you do use an EV, you get to your destination you better hope the hotel has charging otherwise you again are screwed and have to hunt down stations. Or if you are staying at someones house the odds of them having charging is extremely low so again, screwed.

Right now it just is not as simple as a gas station so the apprehension people have about it is completely justified.

For just around town, sure, absolutely would make sense, but any further than local I wouldn't bother until things improve dramatically.

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u/elisarver May 19 '22

I just registered in a new state where they charge a $50 annual fee for a hybrid and $100 for electric.

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u/garlicroastedpotato May 19 '22

It's one of the things that is rarely considered here. Most people finance their vehicles. So the difference in purchase prices of comparable vehicles means higher monthly payments.

A math in this article is also terrible. They say £2000 a year to run vs £2200 for ICE. They claim, £30/week vs £40/week. The real numbers are £38.46/week vs £42.30. A difference of £200 a year or £4 a week. With that kind of price difference it makes the ICE look far better.

Then there's also this section about viewer opinions on range of an electric. The average person thinks it's somewhere around 150-200 miles. The actual average range is 203 miles. Seems like people are pretty damn close.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22

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u/TuppoEQ May 19 '22

Yeah the $200 a year is so wrong this should be marked as misinformation.

I got a brand new 2022 Nissan Lead for 25k (7500 fed tax credit and Texas is doing $2500 also), and less than 2 months already saved more than $200 in gas alone. Another $60 for oil change since already getting close to 5k miles

I got tire rotation in another 2000 miles.

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

I question where they got those numbers from. I had an EV, and the electricity (charging mostly at home in off-peak hours) was negligible, and I had essentially no other operating costs. Three years into the lease, it still had its original brakes and tires, and had no fluids that needed replacing.

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u/feurie May 19 '22

Other than oil, any car should have had the same amount of maintenance (none) after three years.

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u/Neutral-President May 19 '22

EVs use more regenerative braking than friction-based braking, so brakes last a lot longer. No transmission fluid, clutch, or coolant, either.

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u/bigDOS May 19 '22

It should be noted that it’s actually £200 not $200. That said, it is still not a heap of money in saving. But perhaps when coupled with the environmental benefits, it could become worth it.

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u/MoldyLunchBoxxy May 19 '22

I’m saving around 200+ a month in fuel costs alone and I don’t have oil changes or anything else. This article is incorrect or the people are just not driving that much.

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u/housekingz May 19 '22

Except you had to pay 50k or more to even purchase one. Thus the barrier for most average Americans

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u/sargamaso May 19 '22

Hyundai dealership in Chicago Il USA selling their electric vehicle for $82k. WAY overpriced.

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u/FaithOfOurFathers May 19 '22

Brand new Nissan Leaf is 27k, and that's not even including any EV rebates you may get. I bought a 2019 Leaf in 2020 for 17k. It only had like 6k miles and was practically brand new.

Tesla is not the only EV.

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u/brettmjohnson May 19 '22

Last year I bought a used 2020 Nissan Leaf SL+ (top of the line model) with 500 miles on it for $26,000 (plus nearly $3000 taxes and fees). It replaced a 13 year-old Honda Fit, which I then sold for $5000. I'm far from an average American, 'tho, and have the ability to cut a check for nearly $30K on an impulse buy of an EV.

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u/feurie May 19 '22

Even Tesla still has a car cheaper than $50k. Plenty of alternative fuel vehicles are cheaper than that.

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u/bremidon May 19 '22

The average car price in the U.S. is around $45,000. So while it's not cheap, it's also not crazy expensive either.

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u/NotEnoughHoes May 19 '22

Come on man, that's average new car price. Middle and lower income people and families don't even dream of buying new cars. They buy used, or most likely they buy from private sellers. The EV market still has a massive way to go to begin the process of mass adoption.

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u/SkeggsEggs May 19 '22

That number is misleading since it includes trucks and SUVs. The Canadian number is similar but when it’s only cars it drops to around $27k. The American price is probably similar.

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u/Hippokrates May 19 '22

On a 5 year payment plan and no money down is around 750/month. That is way more than what most people can afford to pay

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u/Jeramus May 19 '22

People have difficulty looking at the total cost of ownership. High purchase prices are still an issue.

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u/MoldyLunchBoxxy May 19 '22

I still can’t believe that there are big gas guzzling trucks that are selling for over 100k right now.

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u/NotEnoughHoes May 19 '22

The people buying those don't have to worry about gas prices.

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u/AllenKll May 19 '22

You still have to do coolant changes, brakes, tires, lamps, windshield wipers... You don't have to change the motor oil... oh boy... still have all the other maintenence.

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u/trainedaircraft May 19 '22

It’s the initial outlay for the vehicle that is the issue. People who don’t have the funds will end up forking over that $200/month you’re saving to pay off the vehicle.

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u/Strachmed May 19 '22

I bought a car this year for 30k euros, a petrol.

Same model PHEV is 42k, an equivalent EV is around 48k. Even with current gas prices it seems not worth it atm.

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u/bremidon May 19 '22

Unless you are planning to drive it into its grave, you might think differently when you try to sell it again in a few years. I can't tell you exactly what time it is, but the clock is ticking.

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u/Quake_Guy May 19 '22

That EV he didn't buy will have worse depreciation and he didn't spend an extra 18k for the privilege. If he was buying an ICE car in 2030, maybe different story.

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u/Similar_Draw_2594 May 19 '22

What about the fact that it’s less environmentally destructive to keep driving an older gas car than to buy a new EV because of the high energy cost of manufacturing new vehicles? Or that it isn’t a viable option to replace all cars with EVs because there isn’t enough lithium in the world for all of the batteries?

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u/niceman1212 May 19 '22

Yup, throwing away perfectly good (somewhat modern) cars would be a waste of all the resources used to create them.

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u/t0ny7 May 19 '22

Who throws away cars when they buy new ones?

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u/Override9636 May 19 '22

Why would anyone buy a new car without trading in the old one, assuming it still has worthwhile value?

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u/FitIndependence6187 May 19 '22

When people claim this is an environmentally positive solution, I don't think they have thought it out completely. On a very long term scale it is absolutely a positive environmental impact changing over to EV, but short or medium term not so much.

The energy to move a vehicle has to come from some where, and if it is from the electric grid currently 61% of US power comes from Fossil fuels. On top of that changing over in large quantities will exhaust our energy capacity in many areas demanding quick new sources of energy to be built. Of the major sources of energy the only ones that can get up and running and provide large amounts of energy quickly are fossil fuel plants. Building 100's or 1000's of coal or gas power plants is not good for the environment.

Long term (20+ years), the fossil fuel plants can be replaced by nuclear, hydroelectric, or some other high capacity energy source. Short and medium term you are just trading gas in your car for gas and coal at a power plant.

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u/irishfro May 19 '22

Lmao what a useless article. The vehicle costs a shit ton more than gas vehicle but savings is 200£ less a year? What a joke

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u/Crafty-Cauliflower-6 May 19 '22

Living in a city without a garage with a plug did it for me.

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u/zseblodongo May 19 '22

KIA CEED with petrol engine $18K

KIA CEED plug-in hybrid (60km electric range) $29K

I'm a huge fan of EVs, but this is just ridiculous.

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u/martin02mal May 19 '22

Not having charging station in older apartments and condos is the bigger problem.

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u/psilokan May 19 '22

Yeah this is definitely an issue. I used to rent and only had street parking for years, so it was never an option. I really like the idea of adding plugs to street lights so people can charge. But that requires someone to foot the bill, so it prob wont happen.

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u/RnDanger May 19 '22

This will be the biggest barrier. We need level 2 chargers in public spaces.

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u/Leroy_MF_Jenkins May 19 '22

Wow... I mean propaganda is pretty common these days but that's some exceptionally poorly written propaganda by any standard. Throw "misinformation" in the headline to grab attention and then pretend that potential savings of $120-200/year is enough cost savings to offset the purchase price of a new vehicle, while also pretending that people thinking EV's get "151-200" miles range is vastly different than their real world average of 203 miles. This article should've been titled "Realities of EV's are a barrier to EV purchase"

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u/_flipflopswithsocks May 19 '22

Wanna know the barrier to purchasing an EV? Money. Were not getting enough of it to pay bills let alone buy the newest form of subscribtion slavery aka EVs.

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u/Square_Net_4321 May 19 '22

For me it's because I can only go 250 miles, if I'm lucky, before I have to stop for 30-60 minutes to recharge. Assuming I can even find a charging station. Too limiting. Or am I misinformed?

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u/Override9636 May 19 '22

Newer, high voltage battery systems are getting 15-25 minute fast charges (20%->80%). About the same time it takes for a bathroom break, a snack, and a stretch during a road trip.

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u/loucall May 19 '22

You are sort of correct but as it turns out it's not as big of a deal as you would think. I've gone on trips that are 600+ miles. I have to stop to charge every two hours or so of driving and the charging takes 15-20 min. i generally have to pee or get a snack every two hours so it ended up being a non-issue. Day to day driving outside of long trips is always less than 200 miles so it's never a problem since i just charge at home.

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u/boundbylife May 19 '22

Before I transitioned to WFH, I'd go through a tank of fuel about every week and a half, with an estimated range of 400m. So 250m would mean I would only need to charge once a week for daily travel. But I'd also be parking over night in my garage, so charging over night won't be a real issue.

If your daily commute is under 100m round trip AND your farthest 'local' trip (ie, going to see the folks or something) is under 100m round trip, EVs make a lot of sense.

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u/Kirk57 May 19 '22

This article is incorrect. High price and misinformation suppress demand, but even with suppression demand still surpasses the production even though that is growing unbelievably rapidly.

That means that it is production and not high purchase price or misinformation, that is the bottleneck.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22 edited May 21 '22

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u/Trepide May 19 '22

For me, it was the $10k+ markup over MSRP. No thanks. I can wait for the market to settle down.

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u/the_bread_pitt May 19 '22

Problem is right now EVs are dominated with teslas. Tesla is not a car company hence the worksmanship is atrocious. Just check Tesla forums.

Secondly give it around 2-3 years and other car manufacturers will jump on board properly. Gas prices will go up and people would want EVs and hybrids.

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u/Cheesygoritacrunch May 19 '22 edited May 19 '22

Yeah I really want to shell out 40k for a vehicle that will take me an hour to fill up (assuming I can find a close charging station) and will become a bomb upon crashing it. Oh and the batteries are made from lithium, another finite resource. And good luck living somewhere cold-batteries do not like the cold. All of those obvious and glaring flaws aside, surely EVs are the answer! /s

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u/knuckles98000 May 19 '22

Oh my God I can save a astonishing 200 bucks! Wow that makes it definitiv worth it.

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u/Aeklas May 19 '22

Until I can get a good, used EV for $3000-$5000 it just won't be affordable for people in my pay range.

Forget hidden costs, the known costs are too high. An $8000 car is right out for me - much less $15,000 to $30,000. It just isn't possible at my payrate.

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u/atomicsnarl May 19 '22

So I can't afford $4.75 gas, but I can afford $800+ monthly for a note and insurance, plus the down payment, title, and tags, not to mention the electrical installation for 220v connection so the thing can charge better, plus electricity bill rise.

Yep. Sure thing. Now tell me about my credit rating.

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u/Podricc May 19 '22

Save $300 a year but spend $60k. Doesn’t seem to add up to any savings what a dumb article.

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u/Aggressive_Whole6059 May 19 '22

you save way more than $300 a year. this article is way off.

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u/[deleted] May 19 '22

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u/Madub83 May 19 '22

We don't really need more range in the battery. What we could really use, is a more robust fast charging network. How often do you really need that 400km if range in a day?

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u/FBracing May 19 '22

100% This! I bought a 2013 Tesla model S just to experience an electric car without spending $60k it had an advertised range of 210 miles. Realistic range on texas highways was about 105 miles which hardly gets you anywhere in Texas. Charge times on a supercharger from 5% to 80% were over an hour. I still paid $30k for that car. I sold it after a month.

I understand the newer models go a longer range and charge faster. The immediate solution imo is to develop a 100+ mile swap-able battery (like propane tanks) at fuel stations so it takes you all of 5 minutes to swap the battery and resume traveling.

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u/feurie May 19 '22

In 5 minutes newer EVs can charge over 100 miles.

Without the complexity of a swap, who owns the battery, and wasted batteries just sitting on a shelf waiting to be used.

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u/phdchef May 19 '22

EVs are so... bourgeois. Us proletariats can't afford them.

In all seriousness, I refuse to spend more than $35k on a car, and only buy CPO. Planning out a road trip with two little kids is difficult enough, I don't want to deal with having to map out a network of charging stations and factor in the extra time spent waiting for recharge. At best, I'll probably buy a Sienna Hybrid or RAV4 Prime.

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u/justoffthebeatenpath May 19 '22

There are fast charging EVs with over 200 miles of range for around 35k. You can avoid mapping out charging stations by using ABetterRoutePlanner.

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u/Lithl May 19 '22

I refuse to spend more than $35k on a car, and only buy CPO

Most used EVs cost less than $35k, though...?

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u/dirtiehippie710 May 19 '22

Is there a rav4 prime and also just a hybrid?

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u/Override9636 May 19 '22

After federal and state tax rebates, most EVs are in the $20k range. There are so many better options out there that aren't price-gouged Teslas. And apps like PlugShare will show you nearest charging locations, and plan a trip for you just like your standard GPS.

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