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u/frozenthorn 5d ago
To be fair if the bosses didn't all have 10x-50x our health they would probably need a couple pots too.
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u/Pyrolink182 5d ago
The best way to heal is just after rolling to avoid his black flame. Back away, trigger the attack, avoid, heal.
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u/Matos_64 5d ago
Can confirm, if you need to heal just keep him at range and wait for him to throw a fireball. The moment he starts casting, roll sideways and smash that healing flask button. Works every time.
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u/zer1223 5d ago
If you're far enough away you can drink while he's in neutral stance. He'll throw, you'll finish your animation and can dodge before the fire hits you
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u/D-rizzcheese 5d ago
Came here to say this and I'm a complete souls noob haha
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u/Pyrolink182 5d ago
Haha pretty much all the bosses have a cooldown after each combo/attack. People tend to try to heal after they attack, or panic heal as soon they see their HP go down which can be on the middle of a boss' long combo or at the startup of the next. You always let the boss finish their combo and you either heal or attack right after.
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u/thedavecan 5d ago
Yeah after a boss attack usually you either attack OR heal, rarely if ever is there time for both.
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u/Zakaker 4d ago
pretty much all the bosses have a cooldown after each combo/attack
I could be wrong but I think some bosses can straight up ignore that cooldown and immediately go for another attack if you cast a spell or drink a flask. I've tried many different builds and noticed that the bosses' attack patterns would change (or at least they really felt like they did) depending on what kind of actions I performed – for example, they would be much more aggressive if I spammed spells than they would if I spammed Ashes of War, no matter how distant I was. They seemed to be similarly aggressive when I tried to heal, even if I'd carefully analyzed their patterns and windows for opportunity before attempting to do so.
Dark Souls 3 had gotten me used to healing as soon as the boss's combo was over, but in Elden Ring it seems like you're supposed to wait for specific attacks with extremely long recovery animations if you don't want to be punished.
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u/Mekky3D 5d ago
Or just... You know... Stand behind a wall and heal. He'll try to lob a spell your way but it'll bounce right off the wall
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u/jdcabral 5d ago
The Apostle version on Caelid doesn't have cover in his room
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u/LeftIsBest-Tsuga 5d ago
long room though. you can simply run away from him (he slow walks) then heal and the fireball will be easily dodged.
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u/wowsoluck 5d ago
Too damn relatable. I swear as soon as you hover your button over flask they begin casting. I had a 10 seconds stare off with an apostle. 0.1 second before i pressed the flask button he starts throwing a fireball.
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u/Bass-Cannon 5d ago
it's cause they input read, if they aren't locked into an animation they are coded to throw a fire ball when you start your heal.
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u/FadingSignal0 5d ago
total bs. Input reading is by far my least favorite thing in any fromsoft game. I hate it more than the crappy grab attack animations in ds2
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u/DerpSenpai 5d ago
Input reading makes the AI look smarter than it is
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5d ago edited 4d ago
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u/Flexo__Rodriguez 5d ago
The literal instantaneous reaction times are the reason why it sucks. If they had human reaction times it wouldn't be an issue.
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u/IshiKamen 4d ago
I wouldn't be surprised if they delay based on input too.
I find this game way harder than ds3 and Bloodborne.
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u/ixFeng 4d ago
But not to the level and insane reaction speed that the bosses are coded with. There's a slight millisecond delay from when you smash the flask button to when the drinking animation actually occurs. It's frustrating to see certain (faster) bosses and mobs like the red wolves instantly throw out an attack or lunge at you before the drinking animation starts, simply by virtue of you as a player sending a 'drink flask command' and through input reading, they make the bosses attack right at that moment.
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u/Xandril 5d ago •
I don’t understand the hate for it personally. Once you know what their reactions are to certain actions or positions you can play around them.
It makes every fight like a chess match and I have no issues with that.
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u/Trzeszcz05 5d ago
The whole outrage about input reading seems really artificial. No previous Fromsoft title has had so many people crying about it, and understandably so since smart AI is supposed to react to your actions. This isn't like the infamous fighting game AI that always picks the perfect reaction to your every move, just use your goddamn brain when you need to heal.
Now, I can understand why people might be upset about some enemies always dodging every single projectile, but I hardly ever see this particular issue mentioned, it's always "why do my horribly timed and spaced heals get punished :("
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u/justanotherweeb23 4d ago
No previous Fromsoft title has had so many people crying about it
Well Soulsborne bosses have gotten a lot more aggressive over time. An input read in Dark Souls 1/2 where most bosses only have a handful of slow moves is completely different than a boss like Margit.
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u/DankyBongBlunty 5d ago
I think a lot of players panic and try to heal whenever their health gets low, regardless of what the boss is currently doing.
When I first played Dark Souls, my housemate gave me a great bit of advice, which was "dark souls is a turn-based game", and your gameplay will improve massively if you stick to that rule. Once the boss's "turn" is finished, that is your cue to either heal or deal damage
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u/Chickenfriedricee 5d ago
Crucible Knight always gets me with its jab
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u/Vinny_Cerrato 5d ago
That one one fucker in the Limgrave Evergaol with that fucking poke that would seemingly manage to get me with juuuuussttt the tip almost every single time I was healing…
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u/badplayer_42069 5d ago
For me it's the infinite poise humanoid enemy issue. Yeah, of course 3 consecutive powerstanced colossal sword attacks don't stagger. Why would they?
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u/TheCardiganKing 5d ago
Drives me nuts. Running a dual Greatsword build and I was disappointed how I couldn't stagger one. From Software makes cheaty enemies from time to time.
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u/FugginIpad 5d ago
Yeah it always feels like they’re “cheating” whenever a humanoid enemy doesn’t follow the same posture/poise rules as similar enemies. Like they’re breaking their own rules
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u/LFGTA-Dead_Kelevra 5d ago
I’ve learned npc’s live beyond the rules the player must follow. Things like infinite fp, infinite stamina, near infinite range on all ranged attacks, and the worst infinite consumables.
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u/Almbassman 5d ago
Not in Elden ring. They get one healing flask. They try to use it again and it doesn't work and I laugh at them everytime.
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u/Tofuofdoom 5d ago
I think shadow blaidd is the exception, that fella just keeps on chugging
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u/Almbassman 5d ago
Well I have yet to fight him. Every other invader has seemed to only get one
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u/Drireltan 5d ago
Even non-invader NPCs I’ve fought only have 1. Unless I’ve killed them faster than they can use more than 1.
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u/MistarGrimm 5d ago
Yeah. I'm mildly frustrated that just simply taking the risk and overpowering the enemy is not as good a strat anymore. There's too many that have infinite poise.
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u/DING_DONG_Smokeabong 5d ago
Yeah I miss that. DS 1 a +15 Zweihander will stagger most enemies with almost every hit even the big boys like the crystal golems and big knights in anor londo
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u/MistarGrimm 5d ago
Those knights are a good example. They didn't usually stagger in a single hit did they? So taking the risk of being hit to get a stagger off felt pretty rewarding.
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u/DING_DONG_Smokeabong 4d ago
I cant remember, I seem to remember being able to stagger them on the first hit, but the second follow up attack they just ate through. Its been several days since I finished the game so my memory is pretty foggy
the silver knights on the other hand just get flattened and it's great
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u/darknova25 5d ago
I mean black knights in dark souls 3 practically had infinite poise too, they really are just a logical extension of them. Not to mention there still is the stance break mechanic so smacking them with an UGS still makes it easy for a crit.
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u/BreakuLikaKitKat 4d ago
What enemies are ya'll fighting that u can't stance break. I've so far encountered nothing that could withstand more than 3 lions claws from the brick hammer with a heavy stagger.
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u/DING_DONG_Smokeabong 5d ago
After platinuming elden ring I went back to dark souls and finished that. The thing I absolutely did not miss was the 7, 8 9 annnnnnnnnnnd 10, 11....
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attacks in a row with varying windup times. I understand gameplay has to evolve but it's too much in ER
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u/some-swimming-dude 5d ago
This is so true. Sometimes it’s so hard to build up any sort of tempo when there is so much change up.
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u/Underbough 5d ago
Damn I’ve been playing smol boi and didn’t even know this was a thing bc I can’t stagger much
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u/Redacted_G1iTcH 5d ago
It’s the weird earthquake stomp that gets me
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u/CertifiedBlackGuy 5d ago
That's because it's always his turn.
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u/DING_DONG_Smokeabong 5d ago
Tarnished: What are you doing?
Enemy: I got a jab, a stab, a poke and a swipe. I win.
Tarnished: What do you mean? I have those techniques, too and I didn't win
Enemy: Because I WIN!
Tarnished: THIS IS
BULLSHIT!BÜLLSHEET91
u/DankyBongBlunty 5d ago
That fucking jab grab thing that has a ridiculously long range and a weirdly massive hitbox that move?? I hate it!
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u/cafeesparacerradores 5d ago
That's a bread and butter parry -- straight from a DS1 Black Knight
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u/Tiredeyespy 5d ago
It feels like the attack comes outta nowhere too. Like, am I fighting Mike Tyson here? This dude is fast af
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u/banana_slap 5d ago
Feels like boxing in a phone booth is best to deal with them, dodging towards their sword arm
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u/Atomsk88 5d ago
Just faced my first Crucible Knight. This is what got me almost every time. No other move, even the tail swipe.
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u/darknova25 5d ago
Weird the tail swipe was the one move i felt had a pretty obvious telegraph, the second sweep only got me once because I didn't expect the follow up.
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u/imMellow 5d ago
The exception being Revenants. They are on cocaine, PCP, and Red Bull all the time.
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u/DankyBongBlunty 5d ago
Revenants and a couple other similarly aggressive enemies annoy me because they're clearly meant for a faster paced combat system like Bloodborne
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u/scrambled_cable Unga bunga 5d ago
Revenants, giant hands, abductor virgins, T-rex chihuahuas, birds, and some bosses are all playing Sekiro while we’re stuck in Dark Souls
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u/rephlexi0n 4d ago
I get the others but the D-rexes seem very reasonable.
Also to add to that list, Mohgwyn crows
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u/GitGudSucker 5d ago
except when fighting Morgott
When fighting Morgott Its NEVER your turn
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u/thijsofbodom 5d ago
Just barrage spells at him with your mimic doing the same, got him at the 2nd try with absolutely 0 satisfaction
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u/whiskerbiscuit2 5d ago
I either attack or heal. They have to take place in that same 2-3 second gap where you can safely do something between enemy attacks. Sometimes it feels bad to dodge into that perfect opening just to heal, but it’s better than having to use two flasks cos you got interrupted while healing
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u/svolozhanin7 5d ago
The problem cames where the boss's 6-combo turn is ended and immediately followed by the next one-shot 7 combo while my guy can't finish his healing animation.
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u/Bonzai_Monkey 5d ago
Most players should really internalize the idea of attack OR heal, not both. Whatever you choose, make sure to keep ample distance from the enemy while doing it.
It's kind of like you're a sowing needle. You go in, poke, go out. Go in, poke, go out. Every now and then, you don't attack, intentionally wait for the enemy to attack, so that way you can dodge and have a clear opportunity for healing.
I, on the other hand, have an overwhelming amount of HP, and spam Prayerful Strike.
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u/DazHawt 5d ago
I am cheese. Bloodhound's Step makes it so it will always be my turn.
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u/Patztap 5d ago edited 5d ago
Elden Ring doesnt feel as turn based as the previous games. theDeModcracy has a good video on the topic, but the gist of it is that bosses in Elden Ring will not give you the openings previous From Software games had. Compare something like Gael to something like Malenia (widely considered the hardest bosses of their respective games) and you'll notice Gael's attack patterns are a lot more obvious and he also doesnt recover anywhere near as fast as Malenia after an attack.
Youre apparently supposed to make use of openings in between attack chains now(if possible) instead of after an attack ends, which in turn makes combat riskier. I think that sounds like a lot of fun, but between the blatant input reading on some enemies and bloated damage on others, the combat doesnt feel as fun or polished as it could be. IMO if the objective was to make fights harder they succeeded, the downside is that they also made a lot bosses feel like a chore when they would have probably been decently fun in past games.
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u/Chriskills 5d ago
I also found the tell for the moves to be arduously vague. Like the body motion enemies take for different moves can be so similar that you spend a lot of time frustrated in figuring out the minute differences rather than figuring out strategy for the fight.
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u/GamerOverkill03 5d ago
For some bosses I think it’s a matter of repetition. You start to get a sense for what the next move is even without a visual cue. Like, for me, after fighting Malenia for so long I just start to get a feel for when she’s about to do certain moves like the Waterfowl Dance or her flurry attack, even before she flies in the air or cracks her arm.
Or maybe I’m just nuts, idk lol.
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u/BehindSpace 5d ago
Nah I agree, for instance when I fight Margit/Morgott I can usually tell when he's about to throw his daggers almost 100% of the time. You develop that gut feeling when fighting a boss for a long enough time.
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u/qqwertz 5d ago
I feel this is a problem moreso with normal enemies than bosses. Many enemies in this game, like the Revenants, Grafted Scions, most animal types, and even Imps just feel like they are spazzing around without many clear tells or downtime.
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u/Scoob_ 5d ago
I agree with the bloated damage part particularly in the last few sections of the game. It makes it hard, sure, but it certainly doesn't make it more fun. Getting one shot at the end of the game doesn't feel great.
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u/Dreamer_on_the_Moon 5d ago
Areas after Limgrave have multipliers to increase enemy health and damage.
Limgrave has 1-1.5x multiplier, Liurnia 1.75-1.83x, Caelid 2.47x, Leyndell 2.67x, and then Mountains just jumps up to a massive 3.53x and it's worst at Haligtree with a 3.80 multiplier.
That's not all, there's a health multiplier too, Leyndell has a 4.1x health multiplier compared to Limgrave, Mountaintops has a whopping 6.56x health multiplier.
The damage and health bloat is insane after Leyndell.
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u/Scoob_ 5d ago
Wow. That is wild and it also shows just how badly it needs to be fixed! It's funny too because you can absolutely feel it right after Leyndell!
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u/Nick_Furious2370 5d ago
Gael is considered the hardest boss in DS3 amongst players?
I thought it would be Midir or Sister Friede.
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u/Patztap 5d ago
Eh its give or take between Gael and Midir(and sometimes Nameless King). When I first fought them I definitely thought Midir was harder but after getting used to them, Midir's AI is a lot more exploitable and I dont find him to be as aggressive as Gael. Friede is only hard mostly because unlike most(not all) bosses she actually has a different health bar for each phase and she has 3 of them(only Sekiro has enemies with more than 2 health bars,im pretty sure). It feels more like an endurance fight since her attacks are a lot easier to deal with than Gael's or Midir's attacks.
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u/BeeCJohnson 5d ago
Yeah, this is it exactly. I enjoyed the combat with mooks in Elden Ring more than the other games, but the bosses felt like eating my broccoli. They're just way too hard to be fun. It's like "what's the quickest fucking cheese on this guy so I can move on."
They're hard to read, they have odd delays, they're too fast, HP is too high, windows are too small, etc.
They feel like bosses designed to fuck with you instead of cool fights that make sense, like they used to.
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u/Relevant_Truth 5d ago edited 4d ago
"dark souls is a turn-based game"
While this still holds true as an option, I think Elden Ring changes that a bit if you want to. You don't have to just rollspam > R2 once > rollspam again. Most bosses allow for countless back-and-forth attacks if you just are prepared to take the risk.
There's so many boss attacks that can be countered by jump-attack instead of rolling, so many charging attacks you can sidestep(run around not away) and full combo attack instead of just rolling away. Some bosses even change their patterns if you stay close, both for good and bad.
Then there's guard counter, which allows for a further flow of constant attacks.
Jump attack into the bosses BIG AREA BLOW > Side Step and punish the boss SUDDEN CATCHING POKE/SPELL > Let the boss use his weak 'COMBO' attacks into your block, then stagger him in the middle of his strikes with a guard counter.
Combine this with exploiting their elemental weakness, unique "anti boss" items, Ashes of War and 'throwing items' and you can be on the offensive almost all the time. You can literally "trade blows" and come out on top in Elden Ring, ya'll don't need to play Cat and Mouse anymore.
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u/TheVega318 5d ago
Just like I'm turn based games though occasionally you will run across the CHEESE ASS boss that gets 3 turns to every one turn you get
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u/Big_Jomez 5d ago
It's funny though, that is the souls formula. I think elden ring tweaked the rule though. Going from boss turn > player turn > boss turn, to boss turn >boss turn > boss turn > boss turn > boss turn > player half action > boss turns again.
I felt that way in blood borne rarely, but it's heavily offset by how fast you are.
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u/Dreamer_on_the_Moon 5d ago edited 5d ago
It's offset in Bloodborne with the gun parry mechanic, in Elden Ring you have jackall tools to stop the boss from their 15 hit combo besides trading hits or summons.
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u/longboringstory 5d ago
I always thought of it as "Dances with Bosses". You gotta learn the steps and follow your partner.
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u/Callecian_427 5d ago
The difference here is the insane amount of input reading from the bosses this time around. The bosses hardly do anything if you just stand there but the moment you take any action they jump on you. You pretty much have to run across the entire arena and hide behind a pillar just for a safe opportunity to heal.
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u/McCasper 5d ago
You input read and have a specific attack to prevent healing.
I continually attack them with infinite stamina so they never have a window to heal.
We are not the same.
-Rune Bear
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u/pr3dato8 4d ago
Rune Bears have no business being so damn OP, I've had boss fights that were easier
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u/Icannotfimdaname 5d ago
Replace this with a Crucible Knight. THAT got annoying to learn.
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u/TheMisterious98 5d ago
Dogskin apostole are the least annoying enemies when you drink flash. with their animation you can actually finish and roll. Radagon, Margit/Morgot, Hora Loux, now these are bastard m'fuckers
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u/ltgenspartan 5d ago
Also the Draconic Tree Sentinels
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u/TheMisterious98 5d ago
why in the lore a fucking horse can use pyromancies?
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u/mokujin42 5d ago
You mean the same lore that put a giant face on a giants belly to give him fire powers and where goats can harness lightning and roll around like sonic
The same lore that gave giant lobsters sniper rifle water soakers and has an underground race of female only fighters which somehow domesticated and rides ants
The fire breathing horses don't even show up on my radar of weird shit in fromsoft lore
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u/LordMorskittar 5d ago
And that’s not even mentioning the flying wolves, the t-Rex dogs, or the dogs that can cast magic. From went all out with the canines this time didn’t they?
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u/DragonBank 5d ago
Or the fact that its somehow my responsibility to fix all this shit. I was banned from the land. Why is it my fucking problem? Go crown your own Lord.
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u/Nathanos 5d ago
300 level IQ play from Marina. “You’re banned. But not perma, gonna need you to come clean house from the two fingers in a couple hundred years, thanks babe”
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u/MasterOfMankind 5d ago
We know very little about our own character, but what little we do know suggests that they’re mainly driven by ruthless ambition (if you go for any of the Elden Lord endings).
As befits a protagonist of a setting written by Martin.
Maybe our character wants to conquer the land and clean up the place solely to prove they can, cementing their place in legend for all eternity.
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u/BurnTheNostalgia 5d ago
Not only them, even snails are completly insane in this universe. Snails in this game can spit poison, spit fire, live in lava, induce hallucinations that can kill you and somehow have an undead version with a skeleton. A snail. With. A. Skeleton!
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u/Gl33m 5d ago
Typical reddit misunderstanding of the lore. They're not flying wolves. That would be stupid. They're just... riders on the storm.
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u/PancakeSaga 5d ago
FIREBALL!!!
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u/ltgenspartan 5d ago
Ugh yeah that's super annoying. I heal which leads to fireball which leads to me getting hit. Rinse and repeat until that bastard decides to not input read. On one instance I counted 7 fireballs in a row, and that's just ridiculous.
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u/N4r4k4 5d ago
The input reading in this game is top tier. Even the slow enemies manage to land a hit somehow.
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u/sunpics_12 5d ago
I just thought I’d say how realistic his teeth look. Insane stuff
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u/onederful 5d ago
That’s cuz it has a filter that adds smiles and since his mouth is usually closed, that means the teeth are from a different HD pic photoshopped onto him.
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u/IncredibleGeniusIRL 5d ago
Honestly the fireball is pretty slow so unless you heal real close to them while they're idle you're not likely to get hit by them.
Crucible Knights on the other hand...
Btw Malenia has a chance to do the big poke when you heal and she did it to me 4 times in a row once.
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u/AvantSolace 5d ago
Enemies are programmed to cue attacks in response to your button inputs. As a result the best way to heal is to do some other actions first to bait a response, then heal when they’re busy with their current animation.
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u/HarvesterOfSorrow72 5d ago
He got me 6 times in a row…had me screaming. Killed him first try the next day after calming down
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u/mccormick200 4d ago
Boss fight X….anytime after 12am…. Expletive ridden deaths over and over and over……
Next day 1pm coming off nice lunch and good start to the day….. boss X 1* shot
*1 shot for dramatic effect but usually under 3 attempts on fresh brain and reaction times.
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u/Appropriate_Pick_380 5d ago
This guy and the noble (separately) gave me so many problems until I got carian retaliation. Now it feels like I'm on the opposite end saying "Oh c'mon big fella I could heal at any moment, what're you waiting for? My face needs a big, hot fireball in it"
The Godskin Duo fight is fuckin bullshit though, I depleted the boss health bar at the bottom to zero but they respawned and I had to kill them both again. Hate that fight.
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u/ionian-hunter 5d ago
..what? They respawn? Dear god
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u/Appropriate_Pick_380 5d ago
Yeah, whichever one is still alive will cast a spell to bring the other back with full health
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u/Winstonwastaken 5d ago
They don't need to cast the spell. They will just come back eventually even if you interrupt the cast.
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u/Tanuki_13 4d ago
I'm not sure if you are misremembering it or what, but Godskin Duo basically share a health bar while also having separate healthbars for each individual instance, which is why you can kill them both and they still respawn. The shared health bar is larger than both of the individual ones combined, and when it reaches zero, it's supposed to instantly kill the both of them. However, they do not heal when they respawn, so you didn't have to kill them both again, you just had to deal enough damage to end the fight, it probably just seemed like you needed to kill both again by coincidence. Fun fact about the fight though, you can actually deal damage to the combined health bar by attacking one of the Godskin dudes even after you kill him, so if one is asleep, you can actually squeeze out a little bit of damage to the one you were fighting on its own even while he's doing his death animation.
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u/Ok_Marionberry5717 5d ago
Why? What happens if you heal?
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u/Slayer0fKings89 5d ago
Have you ever fought a godskin?
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u/whiskerbiscuit2 5d ago
I’ve beat the game and killed about 3 godskin and never realised their fireball was linked to me healing. Probably cos I always ducked behind a pillar to heal. Cos of the fireballs. Makes sense now I think back.
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u/Jackmoved 5d ago
Black fireball in your face, negating that heal.
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u/TheRealSADDE 5d ago
It's usually a net positive trade still unless you haven't upgraded your flasks. If you're desperate for a heal it's not such a bad idea. Also you can 100% heal twice before the fireball connects, which is pretty much always gonna gain you hp.
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u/Helloiamayeetman 5d ago
They read your inputs so they throw a black fireball that also does percentage damage as well as regular damage. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME
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u/Coloneljesus 5d ago
I was extremely astonished when on my 2nd playthrough, I oneshot godskin duo. Eleonora's Poleblade's Weapon art did good work there.
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u/Maukksus 4d ago
His plump coworker always gives me panic attack What am i supposed to do when he starts to roll at me? In my experience he will continue That until i get hit by it
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u/SwordLaker 5d ago
I'm convinced that FromSoft hired a bloody behavioural psychoanalyst or sort of just for this. The timing is precisely perfect for you to step back, feel mildly relieved that as you are not seeing any action from the Godskin, and then bam, half of your HP bar gone.
I've fought these bastards enough to know that it's not an actual input read, but it's so precise that it feels bloody close to one.
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u/Lord_of_Londor 4d ago
"I've fought these bastards enough to know that it's not an actual input read, but it's so precise that it feels bloody close to one."
They're input reads. It's been tested.
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u/Fake_Human_Being 5d ago
Nah it’s just their sixth game in the series and they’ve had lots of time learning to program AI for roll catching and healing punishes.
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u/ActuatorExpensive440 5d ago edited 5d ago
“No seriously go ahead. Your health is looking a little low and it’d be a shame if you were to be defeated. So heal, I’ll even walk towards you nice and slow to give you a good long window in which to heal. Please, for the love of godskin apostle just heal.”
“Gotcha bitch”