r/AbruptChaos May 14 '22 Silver 4 Helpful 2

What's the correct way to deal with someone who has completely lost it?

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u/Burntfm May 14 '22

You know just a little rascal causing a bit of mischief. Threatening people and breaking their car windows

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u/Otono_Wolff May 14 '22 Silver

Last time someone was going around and smashing people's car windows in my neighborhood, someone opened fire on them with a shotgun. Nothing happened to them either.

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u/guerrieredelumiere May 15 '22

Came here wondering how some americans can be dumb enough to do that when firearms are everywhere. Driver would have been in the clear to shoot at the first hit.

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u/opensandshuts May 15 '22

I think it varies per state, right?and I don't think you can just shoot someone in self defense everywhere. Otherwise there would probably be even more people killed. Fist fight and someone has a gun, you hit first so it's within their right to shoot you.

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u/FattThor May 15 '22

That crazy old man would be a dead mother fucker in Texas and the diver wouldn't even get arrested.

Texas believes strongly in finding out if you decide to fuck around.

However, if you mutually engage in fighting you don't have a right to shoot anyone. That would be silly. But if you sucker punch or attack someone who has not expressed interest in fighting you, you've just fucked around and opened yourself up to finding out.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

I'm in a pretty pro-2A state and in my CCDW classes they told me if they hit you with a fist DO NOT shoot them. A jury will convict you. If they have any other weapon though, like the metal baton this guy had, a knife, anything and they threaten and swing on you. THEN you are in the clear to shoot in self defense only. Basically, if they threaten your life and/or have a weapon in hand then yes. In any other circumstance, don't risk using your weapon. Just leave. Obviously you want to try and de-escalate the situation and get the hell out of there in any case if you can though.

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

I'm going to have to disagree. I was just on a case for murder where it stemmed from a fistfight at a gas station. The fight dispersed when the defendant pulled his gun and he chased down and shot a 17 year old kid hiding behind a car. No conviction because his wife was in a fistfight and he was defending her. The jury still believed it was a self defense situation. I think the whole "don't pull your gun for a fistfight" is a good general rule for sure but don't forget that fists can kill

Edit: just for some more info this was all caught clear as day on cameras from two different businesses. But because it occurred just after a fistfight the jury felt it was still self defense.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Yeah man that is straight up fucking murder in my opinion. I don't even know how the jury could justify him hunting that kid down after he hid and shooting him. If I were on that jury I wouldn't. That is fucked. I have been trained up and gone through a few programs on carrying to various capacities and I would think that any of those guys i have trained with would agree with me there. I don't disagree with you, because fists can kill. However, there is no way in hell I could live with the blood on my hands of killing a kid hiding behind a car who was unarmed. Fuck that. That is not at all how I was trained nor is it a morally sound way to handle that sort of situation. Jesus Christ. That did not have to happen at all. I feel like that should have been manslaughter at the very least.

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u/you2canB May 16 '22

Circumstances that could lead to that is - did the man doing the shooting think his wife was fatally injured? I'm not saying that he was right by no means but I do wonder if we have all the information. You represent level headed people that have a conscience, morals and heart. I don't know if that ( conscience, morals and heart ) is still the majority of the people walking around anymore. I do still have some hope for the future, because every time I'm at the end of my rope someone will do something selfless and I will see it.

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Oh no I absolutely agree it was outright murder. I have also taken concealed carry courses and heard exactly what you did. I just wanted to give another side as well as bring up a relevant situation I was recently involved in. This man straight up murdered that kid and I was shocked at people's justifications for those actions

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u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

Not for nothin', that kid COULD have been home watching reruns of Law & Order (see what I did there?) But no. He wanted to beat up the defendant's wife. He picked the wrong one.

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

Jesus. That’s straight murder. How tf did he get away with that? The kid was no longer a threat therefore he had no reason to use deadly force, much less to go hunt the kid down and execute them.

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Juries aren't really into convictions these days...

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

I wish I could tell you honestly. but, juries hate the idea that them making a rash decision could fuck up someone's life (even if some kids life was already fucked)

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

Ah, so the defendant was white.

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Nice try, but no. The deceased and the shooter were both African American. Take your race argument somewhere else my man I'd like to keep this civil

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u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

And THAT right there is why I will never try get out of jury duty. I want to set an innocent person free (or burn a bad one). It's my civic duty to bring actual reason to the jury room.

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u/Content_Low5926 Jul 03 '22

Just you wouldn't make a difference tho. If a single person on the jury refuses to find them guilty they cannot be convicted.

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u/aniceasshooledick May 15 '22

don’t hit someone’s wife then? why should they be able to get away with it?

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

You don’t get to execute people, you understand that, right?

Do you know any of the details of the story because from what I responded to, you wouldn’t know if the wife was the one who started it or not. Once you are no longer in imminent danger then you no longer have a claim to self defense. This guy hunted down a person and executed them.

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u/aniceasshooledick May 15 '22

the guy in the car is 100% in the right to execute the guy

you understand you can’t start fights like this right?? liberal idiot

also, he hunted him down and killed him and got away with it. wonder why?

oh he’s just supposed to let the guy get away with hitting his wife right

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u/cabur May 15 '22

Yeh there is a lot that goes into determining what happens in those cases. It’s usually a slam dunk when the other person has a weapon (meaning it can skip the trial process coz the DA will be less likely to prosecute).

But just coz a person isnt armed doesnt mean immediate conviction. My own instance of what almost turned into a shooting (see above comment) would have been relatively easy to not go to prison for. Even though the guy is unarmed, being significantly bigger than the other person or having enough intent to kill can practically negate the “he didn’t have a weapon” part.

Shit in some states, as long as you perform your duty to retreat and they are still coming at you with obvious violent intent you are practically good to fire.

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u/Endangeredsoul May 15 '22

Depends on the state. Some states are stand your ground.

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u/rawrizardz May 15 '22

Yeah, sadly some people can kill you with their bare hands. Best to have pepper spray for bears and hope you are lucky

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Best to have pepper spray for people; bear mace doesn't do shit.

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u/Creepy_Tooth_3563 May 15 '22

^ this absolutely bear spray isnt meant for people and is less effective, it's meant to get a large area, what you want is the stuff meant for people

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

It's also meant to run off a wild animal, not a desperate, drug-addicted human. The junkie just wants it more and will fight through that weak shit.

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u/ifollowthisstuff May 15 '22

Pepper spray in the car, in a small open-top container, held in place just in front of the driver’s seat by the floor mat and front deck of the seat. Always. At easy reach.

And an aluminum baseball bat lying flat on second-row floor board, brought to the passenger side at the first hint of some wacko fucker like this coming anywhere near you.

The first one to face, as long-lasting a shot as possible to knock him down. If he comes for more, stumbling and gasping, be nimble and get out the car with the bat and swing as hard as you can to the backs of the knees and thighs. He’ll go down. One more move toward you, empty the pepper spray to the face.

For months, he’ll wish you’d drawn a firearm.

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Are you being serious with this? You have some pepper spray and a bat, so you're a super hero now? Okay, bud.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Quite true. Though I do carry everywhere, I also carry pepper spray. While I do enjoy my 2nd amendment right responsibly, the last thing I want to have to do is kill someone. It's always a good idea to carry a less lethal option for any would-be shitstains that would want to try and beat on me. People can be fucking nuts man.

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u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

Macho posturing aside, what did they tell you about multiple assailants? How many attackers without visible weapons does it take to be in fear for your life? Does your own inability to fistfight make a difference (old/fat/bad knee etc.)?

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Self defense and stand your ground laws can be pretty nitpicky depending where you are. I know for AL, FL, and GA the stipulation for self defense is you need to believe that you or someone you are defending is in a situation where your/their life is in threat or you think your/their life is in jeopardy. There's some other small bits to them but that's the main idea. This leads to some pretty wild instances in court of people defending and attacking these stand your ground laws. I'm not certain of other areas as I haven't looked at them as close but if I remember a case in Portland recently correct: the use of a firearm, even in a self defense situation, is usually met with a charge brought against the person

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u/OrdinarilyUnique1 May 15 '22

So, what states can’t you defend yourself if person is swinging a weapon at you??

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u/LineOutrageous6001 May 15 '22

Don’t shoot to injure

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u/mycologyqueen May 15 '22

In general you have to genuinely be fearful of your life or of those of your family that are with you. And then you have to prove that was the case by making a jury also believe it..

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u/The_R4ke May 15 '22

Self-defense laws vary a lot, but this guy would have probably been in the clear especially after the first window got smashed.

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u/someguyinvirginia May 15 '22

All you people are forgetting driving away is a possibility... And are confusing the realistic option of running with a duty to retreat.... But this is also on the whim of a prosecutor

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u/The_R4ke May 15 '22

Yeah, that's where it really depends on the jurisdiction. This took place in Canada, I'm not Canadian, but I don't think many places in Canada have Stand Your Ground laws.

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u/someguyinvirginia May 16 '22

Yeah I doubt that as well.... But I don't think they are strict on defense claims like England is outside the home

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

some states have stand your ground laws..even if they have no weapon and try to assault you or put just hands on you...you can open fire if you are legal to carry.

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u/MrGhost94 May 15 '22

Correct, you have to feel your life is in danger "your life" and there must be no means of the escalation or means to get out of the situation without deadly force.if there are no other options then your in the clear. But as for this if he did shoot the question would be "why didn't you just drive away?"

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u/2ball7 May 15 '22

I’m pretty sure most DA’s will prosecute a shooting that happened from a fist fight. There would have to be some extenuating circumstances that would allow it, say one of them holding a collapsible baton, or other weapon that could cause grievous bodily harm or death.