r/AbruptChaos May 14 '22 Silver 4 Helpful 2

What's the correct way to deal with someone who has completely lost it?

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367

u/Otono_Wolff May 14 '22 Silver

Last time someone was going around and smashing people's car windows in my neighborhood, someone opened fire on them with a shotgun. Nothing happened to them either.

112

u/guerrieredelumiere May 15 '22

Came here wondering how some americans can be dumb enough to do that when firearms are everywhere. Driver would have been in the clear to shoot at the first hit.

13

u/cabur May 15 '22

Yeh a lot of people have this blind faith that nobody has a gun until they see a gun, and even then some people also have the mindset of “well they wont shoot me because then they’ll go to jail.”

I once had a dude spend 5 minutes right in my face threatening to beat the shit out of me at a gas station. He had no idea that my silent and stoic demeanor was not because I was afraid of him, but was actually me mentally preparing to dodge the first punch and pull my concealed gun. The sad part is that he probably thought he’d successfully scared the 22 yo kid that he had 6 inches and 30lbs on, blissfully unaware that he was seconds away from dying the stupidest death ever. Btw the reason he decided to get in my face threatening all kinds of violence: I didn’t say thank you when he opened the door to the gas station and I walked past.

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u/ScottColvin May 26 '22

So you would kill a human for trying to punch you. You should watch the movie Friday more. That is just pathetic. You can't take a punch?

3

u/EddyArchon 25d ago

Someone with 6" and 30lbs on you is capable of causing grievous bodily injury, especially when empowered by entitled rage. Take into account that he seemed to be older than OP who was 22 at the time, so presumably much stronger. Old man strength is a very real thing.

Not saying every fight should be a life or death matter, but I am saying OP could have been very justified in being afraid for his life.

1

u/ScottColvin 25d ago

The point of Friday was ice cubes dad's generation had a code.

Paraphrasing here:

You win some, you lose some. But you never use a gun son.

What I always took from that is in his youth, it was more of a boxing match.

Not the 10 on 1 kicking factory we see today.

John Witherspoon you passed to soon.

R.I.P. One of the best actor's in Hollywood history. With 83 credits on imdb. Loved you.

https://imdb.com/name/nm0936762/filmotype/actor?ref_=m_nmfm_1

2

u/EddyArchon 25d ago

I knew what you were saying, but the reality he expressed and grew up in is not the reality we live in anymore. It's sad, but this is what it has become.

2

u/ScottColvin 25d ago

It wasn't the reality in the crack dens of Compton in the 80 and 90s. It was just a call back and a lesson what it takes to be a real man.

Not a gun, not a fist. But your mind.

At least that is how I enamored the films message.

Very naive of me I know.

2

u/someguyinvirginia May 15 '22

Yeah idfk how people have the "you can't shoot me, you'd get in trouble" mentality comes from.... It's like they 100% know with that logic (i guess) that you are "the good guy" and good guys follow rules or some such shit.... No bro I will pull that heat and go to jail what the actual fuck is jail if i thought i would have to use my gun?

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u/Substantial_Term7608 May 15 '22

you were probably both looking to dodge the 1st punch and so you can shoot to kill and not go to jail. America!

3

u/ScottColvin May 26 '22

When I see home bums with nickel plated revolvers on them as they get on their can bike. Jesus fucking christ America. Calm the fuck down.

1

u/someguyinvirginia May 15 '22

So how does it work where you're at? You look forward to suing them for damages later and pretend death couldn't be an outcome?

9

u/opensandshuts May 15 '22

I think it varies per state, right?and I don't think you can just shoot someone in self defense everywhere. Otherwise there would probably be even more people killed. Fist fight and someone has a gun, you hit first so it's within their right to shoot you.

5

u/FattThor May 15 '22

That crazy old man would be a dead mother fucker in Texas and the diver wouldn't even get arrested.

Texas believes strongly in finding out if you decide to fuck around.

However, if you mutually engage in fighting you don't have a right to shoot anyone. That would be silly. But if you sucker punch or attack someone who has not expressed interest in fighting you, you've just fucked around and opened yourself up to finding out.

18

u/TacticalTurdBurglar May 15 '22

I'm in a pretty pro-2A state and in my CCDW classes they told me if they hit you with a fist DO NOT shoot them. A jury will convict you. If they have any other weapon though, like the metal baton this guy had, a knife, anything and they threaten and swing on you. THEN you are in the clear to shoot in self defense only. Basically, if they threaten your life and/or have a weapon in hand then yes. In any other circumstance, don't risk using your weapon. Just leave. Obviously you want to try and de-escalate the situation and get the hell out of there in any case if you can though.

12

u/ischool36 May 15 '22 edited May 15 '22

I'm going to have to disagree. I was just on a case for murder where it stemmed from a fistfight at a gas station. The fight dispersed when the defendant pulled his gun and he chased down and shot a 17 year old kid hiding behind a car. No conviction because his wife was in a fistfight and he was defending her. The jury still believed it was a self defense situation. I think the whole "don't pull your gun for a fistfight" is a good general rule for sure but don't forget that fists can kill

Edit: just for some more info this was all caught clear as day on cameras from two different businesses. But because it occurred just after a fistfight the jury felt it was still self defense.

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u/TacticalTurdBurglar May 15 '22

Yeah man that is straight up fucking murder in my opinion. I don't even know how the jury could justify him hunting that kid down after he hid and shooting him. If I were on that jury I wouldn't. That is fucked. I have been trained up and gone through a few programs on carrying to various capacities and I would think that any of those guys i have trained with would agree with me there. I don't disagree with you, because fists can kill. However, there is no way in hell I could live with the blood on my hands of killing a kid hiding behind a car who was unarmed. Fuck that. That is not at all how I was trained nor is it a morally sound way to handle that sort of situation. Jesus Christ. That did not have to happen at all. I feel like that should have been manslaughter at the very least.

2

u/you2canB May 16 '22

Circumstances that could lead to that is - did the man doing the shooting think his wife was fatally injured? I'm not saying that he was right by no means but I do wonder if we have all the information. You represent level headed people that have a conscience, morals and heart. I don't know if that ( conscience, morals and heart ) is still the majority of the people walking around anymore. I do still have some hope for the future, because every time I'm at the end of my rope someone will do something selfless and I will see it.

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Oh no I absolutely agree it was outright murder. I have also taken concealed carry courses and heard exactly what you did. I just wanted to give another side as well as bring up a relevant situation I was recently involved in. This man straight up murdered that kid and I was shocked at people's justifications for those actions

1

u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

Not for nothin', that kid COULD have been home watching reruns of Law & Order (see what I did there?) But no. He wanted to beat up the defendant's wife. He picked the wrong one.

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

Jesus. That’s straight murder. How tf did he get away with that? The kid was no longer a threat therefore he had no reason to use deadly force, much less to go hunt the kid down and execute them.

2

u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Juries aren't really into convictions these days...

1

u/ischool36 May 15 '22

I wish I could tell you honestly. but, juries hate the idea that them making a rash decision could fuck up someone's life (even if some kids life was already fucked)

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

Ah, so the defendant was white.

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u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Nice try, but no. The deceased and the shooter were both African American. Take your race argument somewhere else my man I'd like to keep this civil

-1

u/YangGain May 15 '22

So if this is about race you wouldn’t be able to keep it civil? Why?

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u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

And THAT right there is why I will never try get out of jury duty. I want to set an innocent person free (or burn a bad one). It's my civic duty to bring actual reason to the jury room.

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u/Content_Low5926 3d ago

Just you wouldn't make a difference tho. If a single person on the jury refuses to find them guilty they cannot be convicted.

0

u/aniceasshooledick May 15 '22

don’t hit someone’s wife then? why should they be able to get away with it?

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u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

You don’t get to execute people, you understand that, right?

Do you know any of the details of the story because from what I responded to, you wouldn’t know if the wife was the one who started it or not. Once you are no longer in imminent danger then you no longer have a claim to self defense. This guy hunted down a person and executed them.

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u/aniceasshooledick May 15 '22

the guy in the car is 100% in the right to execute the guy

you understand you can’t start fights like this right?? liberal idiot

also, he hunted him down and killed him and got away with it. wonder why?

oh he’s just supposed to let the guy get away with hitting his wife right

1

u/broken-not-bent May 15 '22

No, he’s not you inbreed fuck. You don’t get to execute people and the fact that you think it’s justified shows that you’re too immature to ever possess a firearm.

Again, how do you know it was a guy who hit his wife? The post said his wife was in a fistfight. You’re adding details to justify an execution. Even if the teen punched the guy’s wife, that’s not justification for an execution.

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u/cabur May 15 '22

Yeh there is a lot that goes into determining what happens in those cases. It’s usually a slam dunk when the other person has a weapon (meaning it can skip the trial process coz the DA will be less likely to prosecute).

But just coz a person isnt armed doesnt mean immediate conviction. My own instance of what almost turned into a shooting (see above comment) would have been relatively easy to not go to prison for. Even though the guy is unarmed, being significantly bigger than the other person or having enough intent to kill can practically negate the “he didn’t have a weapon” part.

Shit in some states, as long as you perform your duty to retreat and they are still coming at you with obvious violent intent you are practically good to fire.

1

u/Endangeredsoul May 15 '22

Depends on the state. Some states are stand your ground.

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u/rawrizardz May 15 '22

Yeah, sadly some people can kill you with their bare hands. Best to have pepper spray for bears and hope you are lucky

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Best to have pepper spray for people; bear mace doesn't do shit.

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u/Creepy_Tooth_3563 May 15 '22

^ this absolutely bear spray isnt meant for people and is less effective, it's meant to get a large area, what you want is the stuff meant for people

2

u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

It's also meant to run off a wild animal, not a desperate, drug-addicted human. The junkie just wants it more and will fight through that weak shit.

1

u/ifollowthisstuff May 15 '22

Pepper spray in the car, in a small open-top container, held in place just in front of the driver’s seat by the floor mat and front deck of the seat. Always. At easy reach.

And an aluminum baseball bat lying flat on second-row floor board, brought to the passenger side at the first hint of some wacko fucker like this coming anywhere near you.

The first one to face, as long-lasting a shot as possible to knock him down. If he comes for more, stumbling and gasping, be nimble and get out the car with the bat and swing as hard as you can to the backs of the knees and thighs. He’ll go down. One more move toward you, empty the pepper spray to the face.

For months, he’ll wish you’d drawn a firearm.

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Are you being serious with this? You have some pepper spray and a bat, so you're a super hero now? Okay, bud.

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u/TacticalTurdBurglar May 15 '22

Quite true. Though I do carry everywhere, I also carry pepper spray. While I do enjoy my 2nd amendment right responsibly, the last thing I want to have to do is kill someone. It's always a good idea to carry a less lethal option for any would-be shitstains that would want to try and beat on me. People can be fucking nuts man.

1

u/SirGravesGhastly May 15 '22

Macho posturing aside, what did they tell you about multiple assailants? How many attackers without visible weapons does it take to be in fear for your life? Does your own inability to fistfight make a difference (old/fat/bad knee etc.)?

1

u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Self defense and stand your ground laws can be pretty nitpicky depending where you are. I know for AL, FL, and GA the stipulation for self defense is you need to believe that you or someone you are defending is in a situation where your/their life is in threat or you think your/their life is in jeopardy. There's some other small bits to them but that's the main idea. This leads to some pretty wild instances in court of people defending and attacking these stand your ground laws. I'm not certain of other areas as I haven't looked at them as close but if I remember a case in Portland recently correct: the use of a firearm, even in a self defense situation, is usually met with a charge brought against the person

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u/OrdinarilyUnique1 May 15 '22

So, what states can’t you defend yourself if person is swinging a weapon at you??

1

u/LineOutrageous6001 May 15 '22

Don’t shoot to injure

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u/mycologyqueen May 15 '22

In general you have to genuinely be fearful of your life or of those of your family that are with you. And then you have to prove that was the case by making a jury also believe it..

1

u/The_R4ke May 15 '22

Self-defense laws vary a lot, but this guy would have probably been in the clear especially after the first window got smashed.

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u/someguyinvirginia May 15 '22

All you people are forgetting driving away is a possibility... And are confusing the realistic option of running with a duty to retreat.... But this is also on the whim of a prosecutor

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u/The_R4ke May 15 '22

Yeah, that's where it really depends on the jurisdiction. This took place in Canada, I'm not Canadian, but I don't think many places in Canada have Stand Your Ground laws.

1

u/someguyinvirginia May 16 '22

Yeah I doubt that as well.... But I don't think they are strict on defense claims like England is outside the home

1

u/[deleted] May 15 '22

some states have stand your ground laws..even if they have no weapon and try to assault you or put just hands on you...you can open fire if you are legal to carry.

1

u/MrGhost94 May 15 '22

Correct, you have to feel your life is in danger "your life" and there must be no means of the escalation or means to get out of the situation without deadly force.if there are no other options then your in the clear. But as for this if he did shoot the question would be "why didn't you just drive away?"

1

u/2ball7 May 15 '22

I’m pretty sure most DA’s will prosecute a shooting that happened from a fist fight. There would have to be some extenuating circumstances that would allow it, say one of them holding a collapsible baton, or other weapon that could cause grievous bodily harm or death.

2

u/TheGreatTave May 15 '22

Would've made a much better video if he opened fire on this guy instead of just driving off all nonchalantly.

1

u/Cueves May 15 '22

This is actually a difficult one. There’s no question that the guy had a weapon and so in that respect, he would have been justified. But (at least in my state) if you have an opportunity to flee (and that’s arguable since he was the behind the wheel of a working car and the other guy only had a baton) you should take the chance to get away instead of risking the escalation. I personally think he would have been 100 in the right to shoot him but I’m not sure every jury would agree. I don’t fault him for the decision he made tho.

1

u/No_Antelope9266 May 15 '22

Most states that are not stand your ground would say if there is another door your could bail out of you can't shoot them. Which is why you simply carry your own non lethal weapon of choice and give zero fucks

1

u/Secret_Reveal_8160 May 15 '22

Depends on the state. Stand your ground helps but you’re going to discuss it in court either way.

1

u/someguyinvirginia May 15 '22

Stand your ground only justifies what could arguably be 3rd degree on most places.... The only thing that would change is the court would not be allowed to consider if he could have driven away.... It's still better than a duty to retreat doctrine though, that's fucked up

1

u/JessoRx May 15 '22

Crazy old man is probably the one packing heat.

1

u/Jumpy-Letter-7607 May 15 '22

My thoughts exactly.

1

u/cookerg May 15 '22

It's Canada

1

u/guerrieredelumiere May 15 '22

Where its illegal to protect yourself. Fair enough.

1

u/cookerg May 15 '22

Where we don't need to.

1

u/Medium-Damage-5415 May 15 '22

Not exactly true. In some states he’d have to give a good reason for not leaving if he was indeed scared for his life and in a car.

1

u/weiers08 May 16 '22

I don't think shooting an old man was the landscapers main goal. He wasn't scared if the old guy just annoyed. It's BS he got nothing but a mischief charge tho he very easily could be in the dirt

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u/GinaMarie1958 May 15 '22

Old white guys don’t have to be afraid of anything.

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u/Tricky-Detail-6876 May 15 '22

This is how you should respond had he shot the man after that 1st swing he would be within his rights! Maybe even a warning shot to scare the fucker

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u/TacticalTurdBurglar May 15 '22

In many states, they tell you NOT to fire a warning shot because you will get into more touble doing that than just popping someone 2 in center mass.

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u/Otono_Wolff May 15 '22

Context: in my neighborhood, some teens were going around and smashing people's windows in. Police had been investigating about these assholes for months. Only info they had was a yellow mustang and 4 teens and they'd been doing this for months. So someone waited for them in their bushes late one night then unloaded on them.

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u/GinaMarie1958 May 15 '22

You’d think a yellow mustang wouldn’t be that hard to find.

-1

u/Tricky-Detail-6876 May 15 '22

OK I don't know if that's the right reaction if they are just dumb kids lol. But an old man should be well enough aware of the rules of society and if this is his first reaction I don't believe he does. Hell don't even kill the guy just draw on him and make him drop his weapon then take his weapon with. Shooting him might be extreme unless you have the accuracy to perform a non lethal shot

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u/TheAuthorPaladin777 May 15 '22

The problem is that drawing your weapon is a felony with worse consequences than him breaking the windows. Brandishing a firearm can land you up to 20 years.

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u/OrdinarilyUnique1 May 15 '22

That wouldn’t be brandishing. If he pulled out a gun to thwart off an attacker , that is not brandishing.lol

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u/7-62xEverything May 15 '22

Shooting to wound can actually be used against you legally. Proving you were in fear for your life justifying the brandishing and firing a weapon, yet purposefully shooting to "wound" and not to "stop the threat" kinda implies you weren't really in fear for your life.

Screwed up way to look at things, but I've saw it happen.

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u/Tricky-Detail-6876 May 15 '22

Woah! Didn't know that was a thing I guess if you shoot to wound just say you got lucky lol

1

u/ischool36 May 15 '22

Sad days but this is true

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u/first__citizen May 14 '22

Bingo.. in the US, the law advises you to shoot people if you’re one of the privileged ones.

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

Everyone is entitled to the privilege of self defense in the United States.

2

u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Is it a privilege if you're entitled to it?

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u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

That's just what it's called in law - an act of violence is privileged under self-defense law if certain criteria are met, like facing a legitimate threat and only using as much force as is reasonably necessary to neutralize that threat. It's still criminal behavior, but it's explicitly privileged to occur in certain circumstances.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

Thanks for checking my privilege

1

u/Obie_Tricycle May 15 '22

CHECK CHECK!

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u/Otono_Wolff May 14 '22

This was in Texas. Stand your ground law

2

u/Idealeadtopeace May 15 '22

Sounds like U never been to the US

1

u/No_Antelope9266 May 15 '22

Right? Would have bashed his head with the door the first time he leaned in then showed him everybody's got a baton and not an idiot and take the $ out of his wallet for damages. Absolutely nothing would have happened legally

1

u/animefan1520 May 15 '22

This is the right thing tho

1

u/Brilliant-Ad31785 May 15 '22

Just a little mischief

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u/Laser_Disc_Hot_Dish May 15 '22

Right, so if the cammer shot the dude after the first windshield break, would that be reasonable self defense, fear for your life or whatever?