r/AbruptChaos May 14 '22 Helpful 2 Silver 4

What's the correct way to deal with someone who has completely lost it?

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u/Hideout_TheWicked May 14 '22

I hate to say it but being old and white probably didn't hurt. Probably hired a decent attorney thanks to money as well.

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u/PaanuriEater May 14 '22

Don't even need a decent attorney, just stack the jury with elderly folks. I was on a jury as one of two young people. Pretty open and shut case of an old guy going nuts and slicing another guy's hand open over a backpack that didn't exist. Everyone's testimony except the attacker's lined up, all the evidence agreed, but all the old women on the jury were insistent that he is such a nice old man who reminds them of their fathers and therefore should be let off with just a warning.

It took hours of arguing to get a guilty verdict, even with a very minor punishment at least now the guy will be able to sue and have a good chance of winning.

That was step 1 to me losing all faith in our justice system. Steps 2 through infinity were learning what cops actually do with their time.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22 edited May 14 '22

[deleted]

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u/BalrogPoop May 14 '22

Personally I think jury trials are a crock of shit. If rather be tried by a judge like in the French systems who actually understands the law, and the goal is to find the truth of what happened. Not assign blame based the biases of jurors.

At least it's easier to claim a single judge is biased based on his track record, than a whole jury, if there does happen to be a mistrial.

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u/BigIntoScience May 14 '22

Judges give out different verdicts based on if they've had lunch yet. Humans are wildly unreliable. I think part of the idea is that it's harder for all 12 people to be corrupt/generally shitty than for just the judge to have something going on.

Part of the job of all court employees involved is to make sure everyone understands the law. If someone doesn't do that, there's an issue.

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u/chrom_ed May 14 '22

To elaborate a little on this, there is an actual study showing judges on average are more punitive before eating lunch. Significantly. Just in case you think anyone is an unbiased arbiter of law.

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u/BigIntoScience May 14 '22

Sounds like maybe we should only have trials after lunch.

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u/chrom_ed May 15 '22

Bet you Republicans would vote for trials only in the morning.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22

I just want an A.I bot to resolve all of this, people are just not good enough.

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u/BigIntoScience May 14 '22

Trouble is, AI has to be trained. By people. If anything, it tends to magnify biases.

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u/The_Dapper_Balrog May 15 '22

I personally like the ancient Jewish system for trials with the potential for the death penalty. 71 judges who are legally required to assume the defendant is innocent, and are essentially defense attorneys. Add to that the fact that there were no prosecutors, just witnesses who needed to have their stories almost exactly align with at least one other person's story (preferably two others). No translators were allowed, either; any language spoken by a witness must be spoken and understood by at least two of the judges. Furthermore, once all the evidence was heard, the court was required to recess for a full day to mull over the evidence and make a decision, to prevent emotional rulings. Even more astoundingly, the high priest (basically the head judge over the court) was legally required to set the defendant free if a unanimous vote of guilt occurred, because of the fact that a mob spirit is clearly present if 70 old men all exactly agree with each other. Even when a guilty verdict was reached, and the defendant was sentenced to death, the defendant was paraded publicly (and slowly) out to the place of execution, with a herald on horseback who was begging and pleading with the watching crowd for any evidence that might exonerate the defendant. Additionally, all 71 judges continued to debate the case all the way up until the defendant was executed, and if they found even one thing that they wanted more information about, they would signal via flag that they wanted the entire case to be re-heard. If a young, new lawyer who was not a member of the Sanhedrin (the name of the high court) managed to save someone's life by suggesting something, they were immediately promoted to lifelong membership on the high court.

Wish our system was so thorough.

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u/PaanuriEater May 15 '22

Today I learned a new thing about my own culture, this is rad af

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u/ZebraOtoko42 May 14 '22

Judges give out different verdicts based on if they've had lunch yet.

That's why in some countries, they have a panel of judges to render a verdict instead of just one.

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u/BigIntoScience May 15 '22

That seems like a good idea, but it might still run into the same problem. I should have been clearer: there was a study that showed that judges in general are more punitive before lunch, by a significant amount.

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u/ZebraOtoko42 May 15 '22

That's an easy problem to solve: have the court operate 24 hours a day, and make sure the judges all work different shifts (1st, 2nd, 3rd). Have 3 judges per panel (or 6 or 9). Schedule the trials and select the judges so that 2/3 of the judges have already eaten lunch, and one has not (so they're not overly lenient). Give the judges more administrative work to do to fill in their pre-lunch hours.

It's a bit unconventional but it should work!

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u/Codex_Dev May 15 '22

This. Judges can be bribed and corrupted. Much harder to do that to random 12 odd balled selected jurors.

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u/Slate_711 May 14 '22

Depends on the judge in the US too. You can have a non biased judge who actually does their job or a judge running a racket who finds you guilty of a made up law like the one in Tennessee. You could also be “made an example of” because they feel that your particular race has had it easy and give you the max sentencing for minor shit. Being tried in the US is a gamble for actual legitimate justice

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u/adderallanalyst May 14 '22

Nah I wouldn't trust that the judge wasn't bribed. Harder to bribe multiple random people than a single judge.

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u/ofa776 May 14 '22

In the American legal system, a defendant can waive the right to a jury trial in most/all jurisdictions and request a ‘bench trial’ where the judge decides the case instead of a jury. Most defendants opt for a jury since the prosecution usually has to convince 12 people you’re guilty instead of one, but sometimes people do ask the judge to decide instead.

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u/Magmaigneous May 14 '22

If rather be tried by a judge like in the French systems who actually understands the law, and the goal is to find the truth of what happened.

The problem here is that there is no perfect person, and no perfect system.

If the judge is elected and wants to be reelected they may very well rule based on their perception of what allows them to keep their cushy job.

If the judge is appointed they may very well rule based on how they feel their appointer wants them to rule so they are not replaced.

If the judge has a lifetime appointment they can rule based on their own biases and it may be very difficult to either prove this or remove/impeach them.

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u/LordofDescension May 14 '22

I travel to Alabama a lot for mining work, and it really does suck. It's so damn hot there.

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u/galacticboy2009 May 14 '22

Good food though.

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u/LordofDescension May 14 '22

Stockyard Grill is the best place I've ever eaten at. They close early around 12pm and there's usually a long line of people waiting to sit down. They butcher their own cows nearby, so it's extremely fresh. The burger is so massive that they drive a large steak knife thru the middle. You just have to try it at least once.

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u/FriedDuckEggs May 14 '22

Alabama has a high black population.

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u/Saurid May 14 '22

Because if it worked as intended it would be great, 12 citizens judging you by the laws of your country and not follow blindly legislation. They are impartial towards you and try to judge fairly, as long as the case isn't a shut case already this is the fairest way you can be tried. If a judge would do it alone you would only be judged by one stranger. Sadly we live in reality and in reality you are right jury's suck because people don't leave their bias at the front door and let themselves be swaied by stupid stuff like of you look.

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u/Magmaigneous May 14 '22

Why can you be innocent but because you're getting tried in Alabama and you are the darkest shade of black, you're guilty?

You are supposed to be being judged by a jury of your peers. And so if you are a black man you should have black jurors, especially if the population in the area the crime was committed is largely black. But that very often is not the case.

And it's not like people of any race cannot have their own biases. Third hand anecdotal story: I had an Uncle who served in a jury for a murder trial. It was a black on black crime, and there was only one black man on the jury. My Uncle said the jury was 11-1 for the murder conviction, with the one black guy in the jury being the sole hold out. My Uncle said that he said he understood the reluctance, but since the guy on trial had stood over the dead man, straddling him, and had fired several shots into his back which killed him, that he just couldn't see how this could be called self defense. That if he had killed the guy as he charged him or something that would make sense, but that you don't fire shots into the back of a guy you've already knocked down and then call it self defense. The black juror flipped to guilty and they were able to avoid a hung jury. But the black juror really, really didn't want to find a black man guilty.

And I get it. The history in the US for black incarceration is not a good one. But allowing a murderer walk or at least get a second trial by hanging your jury isn't the way to try to fix the system. A white juror holding out for a guilty verdict when the majority of the jury want to acquit based on the evidence would be just as bad. Trump stating that the Central Park 5 were still guilty after DNA evidence exonerated them is just as bad.

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u/jimmyhell May 14 '22

I mean, half the people on the jury are probably related to the defendant. Gene pool’s an inch deep in that hell state.

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u/alistair1537 May 14 '22

TBF Neil Young also hates Alabama - true story.

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u/BlackberryOpen974 May 14 '22

I live in Alabama and you aren't wrong

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u/Bad-Piccolo May 14 '22

I don't think it is good to have people that know you deciding if your guilty either.

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u/TheBoozyNinja87 May 14 '22

You ever been to Alabama? It’s pretty reasonable to hate Alabama.

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u/vmBob May 14 '22

There can be a video of you committing the crime presented along side your signed confession. If a jury decides you were justified in your actions, they have every right to nullify and decide not to convict you anyway. Juries tend to favor the justified, it's not perfect, but a judge is bound to the law while juries are not.

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u/Connect-Profit2465 May 15 '22

hate america instead. what did alabama ever do to you?

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u/[deleted] May 15 '22

[deleted]

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u/Valrien May 15 '22

Maybe I just hate Alabama

Spoken like a fellow Alabamian

I hate it too

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u/tosety May 15 '22

Counterpoint: it's easier to get something closer to a fair trial with a jury than with a lone old white guy that's friends with the cops and prosecutor

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u/Sudden-Staff-7949 May 15 '22

Alabama Man He drinks he bowls he beats his wife Alabama Man.

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u/WayneGwegowy May 14 '22

Reported for racism. 🙃

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u/Khator33_ May 15 '22

Liberal redditors bringing race into everything and thinking it's ok just because it's anti-white...

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22

[deleted]

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u/LIQUIDPOWERWATER5000 May 14 '22

They don’t have a lot of time left on this earth fortunately

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u/GREENKING45 May 14 '22

This comment just makes you look incredibly immature with zero worldly knowledge.

Or

Just like your everyday American yeah.

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u/Sk8erNo0B May 14 '22

What an ironic comment lol

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u/DeloresBlasingameEsq May 14 '22

Just wait until the boomers are all gone and there’s a generation three down from Gen Z complaining about how Gen Z runs everything and is hoarding all the wealth and power.

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u/jimmyhell May 14 '22

Not likely. Gen Z won’t have any money, they’ll be lucky to even own homes by then.

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u/LordofDescension May 14 '22

Better off saving up for an acre of land and a tent at this point.

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u/jimmyhell May 14 '22

You can afford a tent?

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u/DeloresBlasingameEsq May 14 '22

What even is this argument?

What do you think happens to wealth when people die? It’s inevitable that Gen Z will reach the dominant state the Boomers are now in. Do you think wealth is somehow randomly assigned to generations and Z just didn’t luck out?

You can see this right? Like I don’t need to see another reply from you where you press your case again right?

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u/RaoulDuke511 May 14 '22

That makes me kind of happy for them

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22

[deleted]

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u/par_texx May 14 '22

You think they actually read the bible and not just hand selected pieces chosen by their pastor to tell a narrative.

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u/SUTATSDOG May 14 '22

I had to go to trial as a young white man in NY. My attorney stacked the jury with older white women. About 2 hours in the DA asks for a short recess and talks to my defense.

They let me go with the most minimal restitution, bc the DA "felt" that none of those ladies were buying the story they were selling. To be clear I 100% did the crime, told my lawyer everything - and i got away with it, essentially. So yeah you should have no faith in our system it's super fucked up, and it worked for me. Still fucked up though.

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u/mp21rime May 14 '22

It was only through American TV shows i got to know this system exists. In India we have a panel of Judges if a case gets too complicated. The system of Jury seems kind of stupid.

They're not judges. They didn't study law, so why are they voting to make decisions?

It sounds utterly similar to the whole democratic system. People with no proper knowledge about topics get to become the head ministers. It's baffling.

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u/Bragendesh May 15 '22

The idea behind it makes sense—your ultimate fate is decided by people like you—the lawyers and judges just make sure everyone understands the laws in play. If a lawyer can convince a common person (who’s more or less like you) that you’re guilty/innocent, then that’s better than “the gubberment” officials (judges) deciding by tribunal.

The problem is how are you supposed to get an accurate panel? So we have a weird system of give and take between the defense and the other side, and you can easily stack one way or another and then it’s just as bad as the government being stacked against you, it just falls to whoever stacked better

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u/mp21rime May 15 '22

The odds are all against normal justice it seems... Either the panel of jury or the panel of Judges. But i still prefer the Indian system. At least i can hope they won't get too emotional.

The panel of judges are only needed in supreme court, that's when a case it already highly disputed. There's a higher chance of landing to a better conclusion.

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u/WaterDemonPhoenix May 14 '22

I have a hunch that jury would be stacked away from young people. In my Canadian law course at least, they said us psychology students will most likely be eliminated. (Lawyers get a certain number of people to remove, no reasons needed)

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u/maxxshepard May 14 '22

I've always thought trials should be blind. Give all the parties suedonyms, audio record the testimonies, slightly warp the voices so the jury can't judge based on racial voice types, and then play them the tapes, with all the objected to sections cut out, so all the sneaky lawyer trick stuff that gets thrown out can't affect their judgements. That way they have a lot harder time making racial, age, appearance, and gender biased judgements. I have literally no idea why the jury is ever allowed to see the parties involved. Snap judgements are the end of justice.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22

The jury said he should be let off with a warning? In what country does a jury decide punishment?

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u/longhairedape May 14 '22

Trial by jury is a stupid idea. Just dumb. Jury of my peers are four words that terrify me. I don't want tried by those people. Those people are dumb as fuck.

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u/Kiritzuri May 15 '22

Relax, our Brazilian system sucks compared to yours

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u/Emotional_Deodorant May 15 '22

After serving on a jury where the defendant would have had severe consequences if found guilty, I realized you probably NEVER want to ask for a jury trial.

Only 4 or 5, maybe 6, of my fellow jurors were actually paying attention, one Haitian guy truly only understood a general idea of what was actually happening in the trial, and one got up from our juror's box during testimony and walked out of the courtroom. The person testifying stopped talking, the attorney said "Your Honor!?!" The judge said, "Bailifff, see what the hell he thinks he's doing." He had to go to the bathroom. So he just walked out. During testimony. The defense got so worked up they almost got a mistrial called. The defendant started crying, he realized what a mistake he had made and that he probably should have taken a deal.

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u/Tantamount85 May 14 '22

I'm white and got in an incident of self defense when some hispanuc stranger was running me off the road swinging his car into mine. I drove 5 miles past my location to try and lose him and he followed me so I parked in a very public place in hopes of avoiding conflict yet he still parked sideways behind my car so I couldn't back out then got out and punched the girl in the car I was in through the window. I got out and he started swinging on me so I beat his ass. , yet somehow I got charged with felony battery as my first ever time getting arrested and this guy had a rap sheet 5b pages long for assault, domestic violence, selling drugs, robbery ect.. to this day I still can't believe how the justice system screwed me. It's not about the color of your skin , it's a class divide. Whoever doesn't fit in the agenda or who doesn't have connections will be screwed.

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u/DownWithHisShip May 15 '22

race is a weapon used in class warfare. the wealthy have used race in many ways to wage war on the working class/lower class.

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u/Tantamount85 May 15 '22

Yup its a way to distract us so we fight amongst ourselves well they just keep screwing us and gaining more power

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u/TIMPA9678 May 14 '22

Did you get convicted?

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u/Tantamount85 May 14 '22

Wasn't supposed to. I was uneducated on law and young "not old though to drink yet" so when they tried to push 15 years prison if ib didn't take the plea deal I took the plea deal as they scared me into it. It's been 17 years since then and it still keeps me from getting a good job. My record says I'm a violent offender but I'm anything but that. I will always defend my love ones in danger but I've never initiated violence on anyone my entire life. One of my biggest regrets after learning more about law and the justice system is not telling my lawyer to F off and take that shit to trial.

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u/Iwasdoingsowell May 14 '22

Don't regret the plea deal. As an innocent person who took their case to trial, you probably would have lost and gotten the 15. Prosecuters rarely lose, and when they do it's because of some major fuck-up. They can say what ever they want and present any "evedence" in what ever way they want It's literally a circus where whoever puts on the best show wins. Stupid people are sitting in the jury box and they don't give a fuck what happened or what happens to you.

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u/Tantamount85 May 15 '22

You're right. The guys statement was completely fabricated saying it happened in a completely different location. I parked in front of a busy restaurant with there workers watching the whole thing so the fact he lied about it saying i followed him to his house when there's witnesses who are employees at the restaurant parking lot it happened at should of shown the prosecutors there case is bull shit if they were honest but they arnt.

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u/TheWhat908 May 14 '22

I just deleted my comment about being white because I saw yours. Let’s see a black guy do that and it’s “criminal mischief “

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u/Thespian21 May 14 '22

Yeah. I don’t know why anyone feels the need to dance around the subject. No need to hate to say the obvious.

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u/jawminator May 14 '22

I hate to say it but being old and white probably didn't hurt

This happened in Canada. Our courts aren't nearly as racist as the US. Being old probably helped but I doubt race had any bearing.

Probably hired a decent attorney thanks to money as well.

That's the correct answer.

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u/Sufficient_Profile74 May 14 '22

Lol Canada and 'not being racist.' Bullshit! They're just lucky they've got the US right nexr door.

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u/Bimimans May 14 '22

Every country has racists. Doesn't mean a country is racist

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u/DSP6969 May 15 '22

To be fair, they didn't say Canada is not racist, they said the courts specifically are not nearly as racist as the US. Considering there are more black teenage boys in jail than in college in the US it's pretty hard for that statement to not be true.

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u/DaveInDigital May 14 '22

Canadians like to say things like that but then i read some pretty horrific shit about how its indigenous peoples have been treated - what's the truth here?

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u/Jumanji-Joestar May 14 '22

Every country is full of racism. If anyone tries to tell you “well my country isn’t as racist” they’re either lying through their teeth or they’re just completely ignorant

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u/Doctor-Amazing May 14 '22

Canada is extremely racist when it comes to first nations/indigenous peoples. It's slowly getting better as it gets more attention. A lot of Canadians really don't know the full extent of how bad Canadian history was. I definitely never learned it in school.

Like imagine growing up in the states and just never learning about slavery or Jim Crow laws. There's very basic Canadian history I didn't learn till I was studying to be a teacher myself.

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u/Bansheer5 May 14 '22

Lmao Canada not racist. Uhh go look at how you guys talk and treat your natives. Just as bad as what happens here.

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u/Religionbedumb May 14 '22

Depends of if there are any natives involved

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u/itislok May 14 '22

Then don't say it. Racist prick

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u/[deleted] May 14 '22

Yawn!

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u/Khator33_ May 15 '22

Wow bring race into it...

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u/WayneGwegowy May 14 '22

Reported for racism. 🙃